In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Joe Heschmeyer to discuss the origins of Christmas and its alleged pagan roots. Joe addresses the caller’s concerns about the incorporation of pagan celebrations into Christianity, particularly focusing on the historical context of Christmas. Tune in to hear a compelling defense of the Church’s traditions!
Transcript:
Caller: Christmas originated not as the birth of Jesus Christ, but as the birth of the Sun God and was sort of synchronized and brought in because all the parishioners that were baptized or pagans refused to stop keeping the winter solstice as the birthday of the Son. So it was simply renamed the birth of the Son of God. I would be considered a primitive Christian in that we only celebrate and do the things they did as recorded in Scripture and we reject all the things that have been added to so called Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant. So as such we keep the Sabbath, seventh day Sabbath. The question is, how do you reconcile bringing in all the pagan days and dispersing all of the original holy days that God commanded in Leviticus 12:6?
Joe Heschmeyer: I think it’s a great question. I want to take each part of it one by one. If I may start with the claim that Christmas was originally a pagan celebration at the winter solstice for the birth of the sun and that these people coming into Christianity wouldn’t give up the celebration of the Sun God. That’s simply not true. Stephen Hymns has a really good material on this from a scholarly perspective. The very first time we find a liturgical celebration for the birth of sol Invictus on December 25th is in the year 354 on a Christian calendar after Christianity has become like this is post Constantine. So this wasn’t some long standing pagan festival. We can actually trace when the different days in honor of Sol were on the Roman calendar, but none of them were on December 25. Even the reference on December 25 to the Nativity of the Unconquerable sun doesn’t appear to be a literal reference to the worship of the Sun. That seems to be a poetic description of the winter solstice because December 25th is when the Romans thought the solstice was, when there were feasts dedicated to the Sun God. We find those other times of the year like October, they were not solar holidays in the sense that we would anticipate. So if you know anything about Roman paganism, it was not centered around the worship of the Sun God. Know the the center God is Jupiter or Zeus, not Sol. Sol was a minor deity when he was worshiped and wasn’t, you know, in other words, like the. The whole theory that Christians moved Christmas to December 25th to combat this obscure, seemingly non existent pagan holiday was a very popular theory about a hundred years ago, but has been overwhelmingly just shown not to be true based on the historical evidence. Hippolytus of Rome, about 150 years before the chronograph of 354 talks about why he believes Christmas is on December 25th. And it has to do with the dating of when Jesus was believed to have died, when he was believed to have been conceived, and then adding nine months. So it had nothing to do with answering paganism. If you look at when the major festivities were within Roman paganism, none of them were centered around December 25th. So that is a very popular idea that the pagans just, you know, they were like, well, we’ll become Christian, but we got to bring our pagan stuff with us. And there is just incredibly weak evidence for that in the three hundreds or. Or any time before that. So, yeah, that first claim, I just say, not true. The evidence for Christmas on December 25th is way earlier than the evidence for the pagans having anything of importance on December 25th. The same thing is true for people who claim there’s like a Norse holiday or something. This is several centuries in the future. And so the fact that you can find a pagan holiday somewhere that’s on the same day as a Christian holiday doesn’t mean anything unless you can show that the pagan holiday both predated the Christian holiday and was the cause for the Christian holiday being there. Does that make sense?
Caller: Yeah, I just was saying, irregardless of where Christmas celebration came from, it’s not Christian because it’s not commanded anywhere in the Bible. And in fact, the holy days that were commanded, that are commanded, are not being kept. They’ve been.
Joe Heschmeyer: So let’s unpack. Let’s unpack both halves of that, if we may, because you said a few things that were really interesting there. One is you said, regardless of whether it’s actually from paganism or not. But I think if you’re going to accuse people of celebrating a pagan festivity, it should matter to you just out of a spirit of loving the truth to know if, like, hey, that’s that thing that I’ve been claiming about my fellow Christians isn’t true. I don’t know. It seems to me to be the kind of thing that I would hope that would revive your opinion somewhat.
Caller: Okay, well, I’m just. For sake of time, I didn’t want to get bogged down in debating the origin of 25th December being celebrated as the birth of Christ when there’s nothing that says we’re supposed to keep the birth, we’re not supposed to add to or take away from God’s commandment. That’s clear.
Joe Heschmeyer: Okay, let’s talk about that. Because that’s the second thing that you said. You said it’s not Christian because it’s not in the Bible. It’s not commanded in the Bible. Is that right?
Caller: Well, we’re not supposed to add to or take away from God’s law. Do you agree with that?
Joe Heschmeyer: Yes. Do you think doing something that’s not explicitly commanded in Scripture is adding to God’s law?
Caller: Well, when you, when you claim that it’s. You’re doing it for God, that’s taking God’s name in vain because it’s not something he commanded. And clearly.
Joe Heschmeyer: Wait, wait, let’s unpack that. Because I don’t, I don’t think that’s true at all. Can’t you do something for God without claiming that it is part of divine law?
Caller: If you hold it up as something that’s required and you’re saying that it is something to do in the honor, to praise God and to show honor to him and glory, glorify him.
Joe Heschmeyer: Okay, let’s, let’s, let’s try that test then. Because you said you’re part of a group that only does things that you can find commanded in Scripture. Where in scripture does it say that?
Caller: It says, do not add to or take away from God’s law.
Caller: Where does that say go by scripture alone?
Caller: You don’t believe in solo scriptura? I thought that was the.
Joe Heschmeyer: Oh, no, no. Sola scriptura is completely unbiblical. Sola scriptura is more unbiblical than Christmas.
Caller: What, so adding to the script, adding to this God.
Joe Heschmeyer: When you believe something that’s not explicitly in Scripture, you’re not adding to scripture. So I’ll give you an example. How many books do you believe are in the Bible?
Caller: I can’t tell you.
Joe Heschmeyer: Okay. Because nowhere in the Bible tells us that. Right.
Caller: Well, you can add them up, I guess.
Joe Heschmeyer: But how do you know which books should and shouldn’t be regarded as scripture? There’s no one book that says, here are all the other books that you should be keeping.
Caller: Well, I mean, we can go through how the books were determined to be worthy of inclusion.
Joe Heschmeyer: Right, but it’s by the same church that you’re claiming is corrupted by paganism.
Caller: What I’m saying is what we have on record. I accept the Bible as inspired word of God. I believe you do too. Although your Bible is a little different than mine.
Caller: It’s older.
Caller: Which is another question. Why would you take out one of the Ten Commandments and replace it with a different one?
Caller: We didn’t.
Caller: Okay, well, your Ten Commandments are Different than my Ten Commandments. I understand.
Joe Heschmeyer: Because the numbering is not in the. Like the Exodus and Deuteronomy give a slightly different ordering to the numbering of the Commandments. And there appear to be more than 10 things commanded. Just. And. And there are no numbers included. So everybody, Catholic, Protestant, whatever you consider your primitives are, you have to add the numbers.
Caller: Is there a prohibition in your Ten Commandments for against graven images, against idols?
Joe Heschmeyer: That’s what Paycoll actually means. But yeah, we have it as part of the first commandment, you have it as the second commandment. It’s entirely an issue of numbering. And the numbering is all extra biblical, just like the chapter in verse number. It’s not found in the biblical text.
Caller: My original question was, how do you reconcile the dispersing or dispensing of God’s holy days, which are commanded and kept in the first century, and replacing them with commandments to keep days that weren’t even mentioned?
Joe Heschmeyer: Yeah, and I’m trying to answer that because a lot of that answer is the Old Testament, Old Covenant provisions in terms of the liturgical year are no longer applicable. According to St. Paul in Colossians 2, he says, therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food or in drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or Sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. So he is talking about the weekly, monthly, and yearly parts of the Jewish liturgical cycle. The weekly being the Sabbath, the monthly being the new moon, and the annual feast being the festivals. And he’s explicitly saying that that whole Jewish liturgical cycle is just a foreshadowing of the things of Christ. So those have now been fulfilled. So for the same reason that circumcision,
Caller: pardon, those things that are foreshadowed have not been fulfilled yet. Not one tittle shall be done until all is. All is fulfilled. Is that not correct?
Joe Heschmeyer: It’s been fulfilled like the law has been fulfilled. Paul can speak of the law being crucified with Christ. It is brought to its fulfillment. And so the people who argued we still have to live by the Mosaic Law are explicitly condemned throughout Paul’s writings and in Acts 15 as well. Like what you are defending here is a position that was condemned in the first century.
Caller: Okay, back to the original question, because I don’t believe God’s law has been done away with. I think it’s something we use to show love to Him. It’s how we show our love to Him. And the only way we can hope to even Keep any of it perfectly is through Jesus Christ’s indwelling presence.
Caller: So do you think circumcision is still necessary, if I may ask?
Caller: No. Although.
Caller: But that is part of the law.
Caller: Exactly. Now we have a circumcised heart. That’s the belief I have.
Joe Heschmeyer: Okay, I’m confused about the place of the law in your view.
Caller: I’m sorry, say it again.
Joe Heschmeyer: I’m confused about the place of the law in your view, because it sounds like you’re saying that the law is still around.
Caller: The law is how we define sin. If you don’t have the law, you don’t know what sin is. And it’s not just about love. Certainly love is what we are led by. And it leads us to not do the things that are terrible to people that the law prohibits. But it certainly in no way eliminates covetousness. If you didn’t know about the covetousness by the law, you wouldn’t even know it was a sin.
Caller: Oh, but there’s a law written on the human heart. Correct.
Caller: If it’s written on your heart, you had to know it in your head before it could be written on your heart. It has to be written. It is the law. And the law of God is immutable. God doesn’t change. He’s the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
Joe Heschmeyer: If I can try to answer what I understand to be the heart of your question, maybe you can tell me if this makes sense to you. We would say there’s a threefold division when we talk about the law. Part of what you’re talking about is what’s called the moral law. God says some things are good and some things are evil. These are part of the nature of reality as created by God. They do not change in time or place. Murder will always be wrong. For example. In addition to the moral law, which is immutable and unchanging, you also have the laws of Israel. So, for example, the stoning of an adulteress, those are not permanent and unchanging. When Israel goes away, those national laws go away as well. And we don’t find them enforced in the New Covenant, including by Jesus. And then the third set of laws are things like circumcision, the kosher laws, etc. These are ceremonial laws that are about old covenant worship or about creating the Jews as a covenant people set apart in preparation for the coming of the Messiah. Those things are all fulfilled and are no longer to be done. Like Paul is clear that that if you insist on being circumcised, you cut yourself off because you’re. You’re appealing to the law rather than appealing to Christ. So he speaks in really strong terms against people who still try to take refuge in the law as misunderstanding the basics of Christianity. So I’m curious as to what you think of that threefold distinction, because it seems like it answers a lot of your. Maybe your argument or your confusion about why we think some parts of the law still apply and some don’t. Vince, it’s your turn. If you’ve got something to say.
Caller: Yeah, I only have a couple more minutes, but I really appreciate the time and the respect. I think that discussing these things in a respectful and loving way is truly a sign of people seeking the truth and seeking to please God.
Caller: Thank you, Vince.
Caller: The answer, I would say, is the seventh day. Sabbath has never been changed. It’s been in effect since the beginning of creation. The holy days were commanded. Leviticus 23, 23, 26. My mind’s going. But the idea that the law is subdivided, I agree with that. You have health laws, you have the ceremonial laws. You’ve got lots of different laws. But to say that they’ve all been nailed to the cross, which many Protestants say. I don’t know if the Catholics say that or not, is totally against what Jesus said. He said not one lot when he was accused of breaking the Sabbath. Not one law. Let me say none will be, not one jot nor tittle until all is fulfilled. And it hasn’t all been fulfilled. So he’s still got to come back. And we’re all looking forward to that. The health laws. The sheet comes down. All you have to do is look at the explanation. When Peter has the vision, the sheet comes down and all these unclean foods. This is long after Jesus has been crucified. If the health laws were done away with, then why would he say, not so, Lord. I’ve never eaten any of these unclean foods. It was a sign that you’re not going to call any man unclean. It’s explained later in the chapter. So it’s not free for all. You can eat anything you want. Pick up a rattlesnake and eat it. That’s silly. The health laws still are binding just as many of God’s laws are, especially the 10.
Joe Heschmeyer: But sorry, do you still think circumstances. Do you think circumcision is a different category?
Caller: Circumcision certainly is a different category than the health laws. Yes, the food laws are different than the circumcision. Circumcision was a sign between God and his People, and it still is, but it’s not of the male member. It’s of the heart. And that’s clear in Scripture.
Joe Heschmeyer: Well, I know you said that you had a limited amount of time, so I want to respect that. But I also want to at least say a word on Sabbath and on Sunday, because this is one area where if you actually want to worship like the early Christians, you need to worship on Sunday, because there’s overwhelming evidence that the early Christians worshiped on Sunday. You mentioned first apology. I mean, I mentioned first apology as well. But this is something where Justin Martyr talks about this. It’s in chapter 67, he said, on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place. And the memoirs of the apostles, of the writings of the prophets are read as long as time permits. And so on. He goes on from there. Then he says a little later in the same chapter, but Sunday is the day in which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day in which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world. And Jesus Christ our Savior, on the same day rose from the dead. For he was crucified on the day before that, Saturn. Saturday on the day after that of Saturn, which is called the Day of the Sun. Having appeared to his apostles and disciples, he taught them these things which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. So he says two things of relevance. One, Christian worship is on Sunday in the 1000s when he’s writing. And two, it’s because this is a day on which the Father made the world and the Son rose from the dead. Later, Christians, only slightly later, we’ll talk about this also as a day on which the Holy Spirit descended at Pentecost, as a Trinitarian day of worship. Even before that, in 107, you have St. Ignatius of Antioch writing to the Magnesians and saying, if, therefore, those who are brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death, and he goes on from there, making it very clear. In 107, Christians worship on Sunday, which they call the day of the Lord, or the Lord’s day, no longer on the Saturday Sabbath. And then you go back even further to the Book of Revelation. And in Revelation 1, John talks about being in the Spirit on the Lord’s day. This is Revelation 1:10. So you have overwhelming evidence that the early Christians very clearly no longer celebrated the Saturday Sabbath. They celebrated Sunday as a day of worship. You want to be a primitive Christian, you should be a Catholic. God bless you, brother. Oh, Vince, thank you so much. You can hear the music in just a few seconds. Thank you so much. A very. A very fine conversation, and we’re glad you called.