In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Joe Heschmeyer to discuss how one can lose grace through mortal sin. Joe explains the serious implications of sin and how it can sever our relationship with God, using biblical examples to illustrate his points.
Transcript:
Caller: How would you answer this? As a Protestant apologist has said, like, how can you call it good news that Jesus saved you and he forgives your sins if you can just lose that grace all of a sudden by one sin? And I, I’m not a 1A Calvinist, so I’m asking this from an Armenian standpoint, but I always thought of it like habitual sin can eventually turn your heart kind of off towards God. Like Hebrews 4 says and verses, just one time and bam, it’s gone. And so maybe in my perspective, I just don’t see. I don’t take sin as seriously as I should. And I know it’s the mortal sin, and mortal sin has the three parts that require it to be mortal. So could you kind of talk about,
Joe Heschmeyer: yeah, I like the way Cardinal Arenze once said how many times you have to get run over by a car before you die? There are some things you can do that are just like, how many times did Judas have to betray Christ? It. There are things you can do that are serious enough to cut you off from the life of God. That, yeah, one thing could be the thing that does it. Now, I think if you were to do an actual spiritual analysis of the person, it probably wasn’t one thing that just as a matter of fact, somebody living a really holy life doesn’t immediately jump to mortal sin. There are usually a lot of sins leading up to it. Take for example, David and Bathsheba, because this is a grave sin and it is even a deadly sin. Like David’s son dies and the physical death in the Old Testament is a sign of spiritual death. Not that the, you know, the baby dies spiritually, but a sign of the gravity of sin. So anything that had the death penalty attached to it, we would say is a deadly sin. And that this is one of the ways God is teaching us. Because you can’t see that things happening at the level of the soul, so you see them at the level of the body. So in the case of David, at the time when kings are out campaigning, he is at home. So he has left his generals to do the leading and he’s abandoned his leadership. And then while he is at home already being slothful, he then is watching women bathe and he is lusty. That then leads to adultery, that then leads to the pregnancy, that then leads to murder. And so it’s not one sin, it’s a bunch of sins in order. Now, if you were to look at the spiritual fall of almost anyone else, I think you’d be able to trace a similar kind of trajectory. We often just don’t know all the little sins that led to the big ones. But that’s how that happens. This is one of the reasons why we take even venial sins seriously, is because those baby sins can grow up. And the more you give in to little sins, the more you’ve weakened your defenses against big sins when they come. So that’s the first part. The other part you asked, why is it good news? In a way, it’s like this. If somebody said, I’ve discovered a cure for cancer, and the people they were talking to said, wait, what’s that? What is cancer? We don’t know about this. You’d be like, all right, I’ve got some bad news, and then I’ve got good news. And the reason it’s still good news is because cancer exists whether you know about it or not. And likewise, mortal sin exists whether you know about it or not. And so the reason the gospel is good news is not because, well, you can commit mortal sin. You already could commit mortal sin. People already were committing mortal sin. The reason the gospel is good news, it is the remedy to that. Now it’s true. A world in which it was impossible to commit a mortal sin would be wonderful. That’s great. But that’s like saying, oh, you’ve found a cure for cancer. I’ve got something even better. Cancer doesn’t even exist. And it’s like, well, that’s not good news because it’s just self delusion. Like if I said everyone is automatically going to heaven, that sounds like better news than the gospel. The problem is just, it’s not true. It’s not rooted in reality. And so it’s not good news to just believe something willfully, regardless of its truth. So if you want to know if you know what is the actual good news, well, read what scripture says and read including the parts about the fact that people can and do reject their salvation. Now, I often use the language of lose your salvation. I noticed you did as well. And I think it’s important sometimes to catch ourselves and say, well, this isn’t a set of car keys that you’ve just misplaced. You’re forfeiting your salvation. You’re choosing something over relationship with God because you’re valuing something. In the same way, you don’t just like lose your marriage. If you commit adultery, you’re forfeiting something in your marriage. Well, that’s what’s happening here. So what do we see biblically? I want to give Just a couple passages, if you’ll permit me to we see first of all warnings that you can lose or forfeit your salvation. Hebrews 6 has some of the strongest language about this, for it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account, and hold him up to contempt for a land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed. Its end is to be burnt. So it is possible to be the good soil for a while and then to become the bad soil and end up burnt. This is not just. There are two categories of people and you can never go from one to the other. That’s not the actual biblical teaching. You can go from being good soil to bad soil. You can go from living in the word of God to then committing apostasy and being separated from God in this radical way. You have as well the example in Acts 8. You want an example of one mortal sin, the sin of Simony. So Simon the magician, he hears the preaching, he believes and is baptized. This is Acts 8:13 and that is the formula for salvation. Think about Mark 16:16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. So he gets saved objectively. That’s what the Bible says. He then sees the apostles performing miracles and including the miracle of laying on of hands. And he verse 18. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them money, saying, give me also this power, that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit. But Peter said to him, your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money. You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord, that if possible the intent of your heart may be forgiven you, for I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity. And Simon answered, pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.
Caller: Now.
Joe Heschmeyer: How many mortal sins did Simon commit there? As far as we know, just one. But it was enough to set him apart. Where Peter could say, you have no part or lot with us, and that he’s destined for hell unless he repents. And then he just prays that he will be converted. I mean, that’s the actual biblical data. And then the last example, just say all of 2 Peter 2 is about those who are ransomed by Christ and then who deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And we’re told it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, then after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. And they’re compared to a dog turning back to its own vomit and a sow washing, only to wallow in the mire again. So we have plenty of biblical evidence that it is possible to be saved and then to reject your salvation through disbelief or through grave sin. And the response to that is basically just like, well, that sounds worse than a version of the Gospel where that doesn’t happen, but we have to live in reality. Similarly, I would just say, as I said before, a universalist version of Christianity might sound nicer, but the question is, well, which one’s actually true? Does that make sense?
Caller: Yeah. Yeah, definitely makes sense.
Caller: Wonderful.
Caller: Can I follow up, please, Stephanie?
Caller: Yeah, go ahead. You waited a long time.
Caller: Yeah. This is really a whole other question. I guess so. I don’t know if you have time to answer it, but something that sounds universalist is when the church says almost some people can. The ignorant, the invincibly ignorant can be saved. It’s possible if they follow God’s. Whatever God has placed in them. Is that universalist? It kind of sounds like it on the surface.
Joe Heschmeyer: I understand why it sounds like it, but it’s not. It is. It is recognizing that we are judged based on what has been revealed to us. So imagine during the days of the prophets, let’s say there’s some. Just take an easy case, like Old Testament, you’ve got some pious Jews. And one of them knows that Elijah has come on the scene and he’s announcing new things. One guy, let’s say he hears Elijah’s message and he rejects it. Another guy doesn’t live in that town. He’s never heard the message. Now both of them die. Neither one of them believed what Elijah was preaching, but one of them believes because. Or one of them doesn’t believe because he knowingly rejected it. The other one doesn’t believe because he just didn’t know about it, but he believed everything else that the prophets had ever proclaimed. Well, we would expect, reasonably, that God, being just, is not going to treat those two men the same, because they’re not. Actually. There’s a difference between disobeying and not hearing. Like. Like when you call for your kids to come and one of them ignores you and one of them doesn’t hear you, those are not treated the same. And so the Bible verse I’d give you Here is Luke 12:48. To whom much is given, much is expected. To whom more is given, more is expected. That God is perfectly just. He knows what you know and how you should respond to the gift he’s given you. And that’s just the justice of God. It’s not relativism. It’s not universalism.
Cy Kellett: Stephanie, hang on. Give us an address. Cause you won Catholic Answers today. We rarely have a winner on the show, but you were the clear winner today. We’re going to send you Pope Peter. Joe’s book, Pope Peter. And we’ll send you evidence. No. Yeah, let’s send evidence for Christmas.