In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Joe Heschmeyer to discuss the reasoning behind asking saints for intercession. Joe explains how the practice aligns with Scripture and the role of all believers in interceding for one another, challenging common Protestant objections.
Transcript:
Cy Kellett: Tyler, why aren’t you Catholic?
Caller: Hi. I was actually OCIA and unfortunately I stopped going. Okay, forgive me for that, but I just had some objections that I felt like I wasn’t getting answered and I decided to step away from that.
Cy Kellett: Well, maybe we can help with that. Maybe we can answer some of the objections. we’re happy to be helpful if we can.
Caller: I appreciate it. Yeah. So, as we were just talking about the Fulton Sheen. Intercession. yeah, that is one of my biggest objections is the asking for intercession. Because, like, if I’ve ever woken up and I thought there was like an evil spirit or something just seemed off in a situation, I always call on Jesus. Like I always ask something to be rebuked in Jesus name or I asked Jesus to help me in that moment. I’ve never, you know, considered calling on Mary or, you know, Fulton Sheen or anybody like that. So I just, I don’t see the, the necessity or the, reason that, ah, we would go that route over just going to Christ.
Cy Kellett: Wonderful, Joe.
Joe Heschmeyer: So a good place to start is in First Timothy, chapter two, because this is a passage that gets misused quite a lot. Because in there we read that there is one God and there’s one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. And frequently I will hear Protestants quote this half a sentence and say, therefore you shouldn’t do intercession. But they don’t finish the sentence and they don’t read the start of the paragraph because if they did, they would know that it begins this way. First of all, then I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions. We may lead a quiet and peaceful life, godly and respectful. Respectful in every way. So we are to be intercessors, all of us, those of us on earth, those of us in heaven, the whole body of Christ, we are to intercede. And so when it says that there’s one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, that is not denying what Paul said four verses earlier. Rather, finish the sentence, who gave himself as a ransom for all the testimony to which was born at the proper time. In other words, Christ is a unique mediator in the sense that he is the bridge between God and man by dying on the cross. That is explicitly what Paul is talking about. But intercession is still good and to be done, so we are to intercede. But additionally, Paul asks for prayers, right? So you can remember in his letters he will occasionally ask people to pray for him. And so we have been given by God a real agency in working miracles and in performing even things that lead to salvation. And, I know that it sounds. So I’m going to. Say something that is going to sound blasphemous to some ears, but is perfectly biblical. You are given by God the ability to save people. And so there may be someone who at the end of their life, they say that you are the person who saved them. TYLER. Now, that is not to the exclusion of Jesus. And I’ll explain all of that in a moment. But let’s just get the Biblical foundations. First of all, In James, chapter 5, verse 19, we read, My brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. So we are told explicitly there that there are things that we do that can save other people. Likewise, in Jude, chapter one, if you want to put it that way, verse 20 to 23, it talks about this and it says, convince some who doubt. Save some by snatching them out of the fire. So we know that this is an actual spiritual task that we have. We are given agency within the body of Christ to intercede for others in ways that can lead to their salvation. That is a, real thing that we have to kind of grapple with. Now, on top of that, even when it’s not, an issue of this person is on the way to damnation, we’re told to go to one another with prayers. And we’re told, you know, for example, in James 5:16, therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed. And we’re told why the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Now this is all over the Bible. Think about Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot and his family are saved because of the intercession of Abraham. And we’re told this explicitly in Genesis. Think about the last chapter of Job. Job’s friends are cut off from God and are only restored when Job intercedes for them and makes sacrifices for them all over the place in the Old Testament, in the New Testament, you have these examples where somebody’s intercession plays this really important role. So it’s not a question of do I go to other Christians or do I go to God? It’s both. And that is clearly the biblical model is that we are to go to other Christians and go to God. When we go to other Christians, it’s because we’re asking them to go to God as well. And so, you know, I mentioned this before, but the woman I was speaking to, the mother of the Inkstrom baby, she is, you know, she described it as just like when you’re. When you’re falling and you call out to a friend to help you, like, oh, help, I’m, you know, sorry, I’m falling. You know, that sort of thing. No one, I think, in those situations would say, oh, it’s blasphemous. Why didn’t you call out to God to perform a miracle. Why did you call it to your friend to help you? It’s like, well, it’s totally fine to do both things. And it’s unbiblical to suggest that we can’t go to other Christians with intercessory prayers when the Bible is replete with all these examples of that being encouraged explicitly and practiced explicitly. So what would you say to all of that so far? I can get into the. Why it’s not a violation of the uniqueness of Christ, but I want to see where you are so far.
Caller: I guess usually because when I hear these testimonies from people, it’s the way that they’re asking, like, for her example, it’s. It sounded like she said that she asked Fulton Sheen. I could be misinterpreting what I heard, but I’ve heard the same thing from. Prayers to Mary and, some writings from popes to Mary that have a similar, like, poetic style of Mary success and stuff like that. And that. That’s the line that, you know, is kind of, you know, I don’t know how to understand that because I don’t. I don’t want to accidentally think that somebody is going to act without God’s power and him being behind the wheel, you know?
Joe Heschmeyer: No, I, I, think that’s. That’s completely right. You don’t want to imagine it as acting apart from God’s power. And certainly when you read the writings of popes, I don’t think you would take away from many of them that these guys don’t think God is powerful even then, when they’re saying things that are nice about Mary, just, like, read a couple sentences more and. But similarly, I mean, remember the passages that we looked at in Jude 1? Save some by snatching them out of the fire. Now, if you, understood that to mean you don’t need God, you can just save people on your own apart from God, that’d be heretical. But nevertheless, this is inspired scripture. The fact that you could misunderstand a true statement in a false way doesn’t make the true statement any less true.
Caller: Okay, okay. I guess the one other question I would have, to what you had said is the going to ask that person for prayer versus Christ when they’re not, like, physically here with us, Like, I leave the people in heaven for our life. Yeah, I believe that. But why, in that critical time, you know, ask for them instead of just Christ if I’m already going to be?
Joe Heschmeyer: Yeah, I mean, I suspect when you have 61 minutes where you’re trying to save the life of your child and you’re trying to do a lot of things and you feel like your mind is distracted while you’re trying to pray, but also trying to attend to the immediate physical needs of the baby, My guess, without ever thanks be to God ever being in that situation, is that you probably feel very distracted in prayer, and you ask the people around you to pray for you, partly because you feel like it is very hard for you to focus on your own prayers. And I think that is a very normal and even spiritually healthy attitude to have when, you’re in the middle of going through something. It is frequently. I mean, if you’re in AH A and you’re in a car and it’s raining really hard and the driver is nervous on the road, they might ask you to say a prayer while they’re driving. And they’re probably trying to pray as well, but they’re also trying to navigate the car. And this is one of the reasons, frankly, why we have intercessory prayer. Because when we are weakened in some way because of distraction, because of sin, because of whatever else the rest of the body is supposed to step up. When one part of the body suffers, we all suffer together. When one part rejoices, we all rejoice together. This is. I mean, St. Paul is very clear about this. In 1 Corinthians 12, you’re not meant to be on your own. And so, unfortunately, in saying, why not just make it me and Jesus? You’re isolating yourself from the body of Christ in this way that is unbiblical, in a way that you’re not meant to do. Don’t mishear. By all means, go directly to God, but don’t cut off the body of Christ to get to Christ.
Cy Kellett: What do you think, Tyler?
Caller: That makes a lot more sense. I appreciate you clearing that up. so the, the next question was the dog. Dogmas. Like the Marian dogmas, papal, infallibility and all that. these weren’t binding morally or mortally on Christians previously, but now they are. So, like, I could be mistaken, but so.
Joe Heschmeyer: No, no, that’s. Like anytime you define a dogma, then you know what, what had been maybe an area where there was a, multiplicity of opinion. The Church has brought the truth into greater clarity.
Caller: Right.
Joe Heschmeyer: So, yeah, you’re right.
Caller: The question is. So if I was to become Catholic, you know, I have to believe these things, or if I deny them of my own will and go, you know what? I just don’t care. I don’t believe that because it doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t understand. Then from what I’m reading in the Catechism, it’s a mortal sin if I just declare it not to be true. Right? So if these.
Joe Heschmeyer: Yeah, yes, sir.
Caller: Dogmas weren’t bound on previous Catholics, why. Why is it okay to now bind them on Catholics now? Like, it just seems like it’s. It just reminds me of the Pharisees with having the hand washing and all that.
Cy Kellett: Sorry, yeah, Adding.
Joe Heschmeyer: No, no, that’s. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I would just say think way Revelation works. I. I’ll get into the Church’s dimension. But think for a moment. Every time Jesus taught anything, then a person who said, no, Jesus is wrong about that thing has now cut themselves off from salvation in a way that wouldn’t have been true if they just didn’t think that thing a week before, before they’d heard it from Jesus. When he says, blessed are the peacemakers, the guy’s like, you know what? I think peacemakers are really overrated. That guy would have been able to hold that opinion before he hears the Sermon on the Mount. Can’t hold that opinion afterwards. Words. That’s the point of revelation, that whatever conclusions you came to on your own now you’ve got better. Because as I think we just saw in our own conversation here, there are times where there are angles you don’t see, even when you’re trying really hard. I don’t mean that as an insult to you at all, so please don’t. Don’t interpret it that way. Then. I think you’re obviously your Good Faith Inquirer, and there are going to be things where you just say like, I don’t get why this is the way it is. But then if somebody took the time to explain it, you would say, okay, I do see that now. And the same is true with dogma, that there are things where the Church hasn’t originally defined it, but then over time, the Church does define it. We see this within the pages of Scripture itself. In Acts 15, the church defines the right teaching in terms of the Judaizer controversy that hadn’t been defined before. It then gets defined. The Judaizers were wrong before, but once it gets defined, they’re now standing against the Church and against the Holy Spirit because the Church says it seems good to the Holy Spirit and to us, and so invokes divine authority in settling the controversy. It is no longer two sides just debating their interpretation of Scripture. Now one side has the authority of the Church and the authority of the Holy Spirit on its side. Does that distinction make sense so far?
Caller: Yeah, it does. It does. I guess I’ve heard people say that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that there’s new revelation since the Apostles.
Joe Heschmeyer: No. So you’re, you’re right. But Acts 15 is also not new revelation. Everything in Acts 15 you, could have deduced from the earlier chapters, I think the answer is this. If you think dogma is a burden, then the right amount of dogma would seemingly be no dogma. And then it should be okay for a Christian to say, well, I, I don’t believe in the Trinity. I don’t believe in the virgin birth. I don’t believe in the. The fact that Christ is fully divine and fully human. And I still believe he is Lord. I still believe everything he teaches. But I don’t interpret the Bible the way you do. And I think a normal Christian response to that and the appropriate Christian response to that is, nope, that is not okay. Like, that’s. That is not an acceptable thing to deny. But There is a time in the Church where all of those questions hadn’t been dogmatically defined. There were times in the church where some of those things were even being debated, where you had people following Jesus, following the teaching of the apostles, confused about what this meant for the Trinity, confused about what this meant for any number of doctrines. And so what happens is greater clarity around this. This isn’t about new revelation. It is about clarifying what the meaning of the revelation we already have is. So a good definition of dogma, this is, from the Protestant theologian Herman Bavnik, is a faith proposition that claims to be true and demands universal recognition. So it’s not enough that a certain fact be true, but it is true and demands universal recognition. And so the Church has a role in saying this is not only true. Everyone must believe this thing. And as things are disputed, then the Church can say, well, there’s a right answer to this and a wrong answer to this. And sometimes, as the two sides, or sometimes more than two sides argue, it starts to become clear that one side’s view is not just wrong, but dangerous. And so then the Church will say, no, you may not believe that thing. So, for example, there was a dispute about original sin in the 4th century. Not everybody believed in original sin as we articulated today. But when you get the Pelagians who deny original sin, it becomes clear that they think that you could maybe just live a perfect life and make it to heaven if you just tried hard enough. Then it becomes clear why this denial of original sin is really serious. And the Church is very clear, no, you must believe in original sin. Pelagianism is wrong. It’s dangerous. It leads you away from God. Now, ultimately, why does this all matter? Not just for the sake of abstract being correct about stuff. The reason it matters is this. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. And so we want sound dogma because we care about the truth and we want it through the Church because the Church is the way, as Acts of the Apostles tells us. And so this is what it is to live the Christian life. To say you want to follow Jesus and you don’t care about what it is he teaches is a contradiction. To say that you love Jesus and don’t care about who he is would be a contradiction. And so we want to know who he is and what he wants from us. But that means that there are going to be times where different followers of Jesus understand his message differently. And the Church has a role to play in saying which side is right and which side is Wrong. Did that make sense to each other?
Caller: Yes. Yes, it does. but, you know, it’ll leave me with having to try to figure out, you know, how would the, you know, assumption of Mary be important? Ah, you know, God, I guess.
Joe Heschmeyer: Well, why is the resurrection of the dead important? Why is it important to know that we’re all going to rise again, body and soul? Because this is in the creed. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.
Caller: Exactly right. Because Christ said we would. And then Paul also.
Joe Heschmeyer: But it’s not just enough to say Christ said we would, because not everything Christ said makes it into the creed. Not everything Christ says becomes like an official dogma. Everyone must believe. Understanding the fate of the body and understanding that you are made for eternity is actually really important for understanding a whole world of things about the whole purpose of human existence. In the case of Mary, I would suggest with the Assumption of Mary, you have two things. One, you have sort of an image of the resurrection of the body. Here is a Christian follower of Jesus who is raised body and soul into glory. And that is the fate all of us are striving for. but second, if you understand Mary as the ark of God, which scripture presents her as in Luke 1, she’s certainly presented as the ark. I’ll talk about that another time. the Psalms very clear that Jesus goes up with the ark of his strength. And so there’s a fittingness to the fact that it is foretold that God will go up with the ark. And then you tie this into Revelation 11 and 12, where you see in the last verse of Revelation 11, the ark appears in heaven. And then in the very next verse, a great sign appears in heaven. And it’s a woman who gives birth to Jesus, and she is enrobed and crowned in heaven. And so you have the ark and the queen of heaven mean the mother of Jesus all wrapped up in one. I would suggest the assumption of Mary is pointed towards in scripture as well.
Cy Kellett: I, however, have to leave that there because. Tyler, I’m so happy we got to speak with you, but I have to make sure that I let other people get their questions in. because you started with the saints. question. If you’d like a copy of Dr. Carlo Broussard’s book, the Saints Pray for How Christians in Heaven Help Us Here on Earth, I would be very happy to send it to you.