In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Joe Heschmeyer to discuss why some people hesitate to convert to Catholicism. Joe continues with details on the importance of understanding Catholic doctrine in light of historical debates and the skills of prominent debaters like James White.
Transcript:
Caller: I have been listening to maybe all of the debates that James White has done with different Catholic scholars. And I tried to listen. Honestly, the dogmas that the Catholic Church believes were not present at all in the early church, beginning with Peter as Pope. So James White convinced you that Catholic doctrine is wrong? Well, I mean, I was convinced, but then I tried to listen and see. Oh, I see. I see. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I saw you gave the Catholics a fair hearing. Okay.
Joe Heschmeyer: Yeah, I think that’s. That’s very praiseworthy. I like that you are trying to listen with an open mind and an open heart, and I like that you’re calling into this show. I think there’s a lot that’s very good about the openness that you have there. I think I’d say a few things. Number one, James White is an excellent debater, and he often, I think, is a better debater than the people that he is up against, because even if they’re very smart, there’s a difference between being very smart and very well informed and being a great debater. And White really knows the art of debate in a way that I see him on things where I know he’s wrong and still think that he makes a great case just because he’s very skilled. I say that as a former debater, myself, as a former lawyer, that you can make a bad position look right with a lot of skills. I don’t think he does that with bad faith. I don’t mean to ascribe any kind of malice to him. I just mean to say I see what you mean, but I don’t think that actually translates him into him being actually the one who is correct. Second, in terms of the origins of the papacy, since that’s the one issue you mentioned, and the argument there is that, yeah, Peter has this special role in the early church. Now, does that look exactly like it looks for Pope Francis? Of course not. You know, leadership doesn’t look the exact same in every situation in every context. But the actual thing Catholics believe, as opposed to kind of the caricature, is found in Scripture. So just to give maybe one example, but at Luke 22, the disciples are debating which of them is the greatest. And we often kind of look at this and laugh because we’re like, oh, they’re always debating about this. But Jesus doesn’t ever criticize this. He wants them to. To want greatness. I think rather than discouraging this, Jesus explains what Christian greatness looks like. He says that the kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them. Those in Authority over them are called benefactors. But not so with you. Let the greatest among you become as youngest and the leader as one who serves. And then he gives himself as a standard for what that looks like. And he says, I am among you as one who serves. And then he affirms the actual leadership that these 12 have. He says, you are those who’ve continued with me in my trials. As my Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you. You may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. In other words, the Christian model is one of what we would call servant leadership. And the authority of the Church, this enduring role of the apostles, is one that lasts not just in, you know, a few years or the first century or the first generation, but it’s a thing that lasts for all time, that the 12 will continue to have this role even into the coming kingdom as they’ll judge the 12 tribes of Israel. So within that, having just identified the model for leadership, is, I’m among you as one who serves this idea of servant leadership. He then identifies one out of the 12, Simon Peter. And he says to him, simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you all, that he might sift you all like wheat, but I have prayed for you. Now he switches from the plural you to. To the singular you that he wants, all 12 of you. But I prayed for you now our individual, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren. This is a remarkable kind of passage because he’s just said there’s this demonic assault on all 12 of the apostles. And rather than just saying, I am the second person in the Trinity, I’m God, man. I’m going to just stop this from happening, rather than saying, I’m going to pray for all 12 of you. Rather than any of the ways that Jesus could have approached this problem, he chooses to solve it through the person of Simon Peter and tells him, strengthen your brethren. In other words, after. Immediately after having just said to lead is to serve. He then tells one of them that he’s in charge of serving the others, just as they’re in charge of serving the Church, that he’s made Peter the servant of the servants of God. That’s the understanding of the papacy, not that the Pope should boss everybody around like a gentile overlord. Jesus is very clear. That’s not it. That rather, he is to be a servant of the people of God and then a servant of those serving the people of God. That’s the understanding and included within that, from the earliest days of the Church, we see people turning to the Bishop of Rome to figure out what he believes and viewing communion with him and communion with his beliefs as being a really central part of the Catholic thing. And we see that in a couple of ways. Now, I mentioned the Scripture once. Let me give you just two quick historical ones. First, you have the letter called First Clement in 96 AD, roughly thereabouts, while the Apostle John is still alive. The Corinthians have had an issue with an internal dispute in the Church. And rather than writing to the living apostle, they write to the Bishop of Rome, who writes back and settles the issue. That gives us a clear impression that the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, has this really important, really central kind of role. But additionally, I would say when you get to the arguments that Irenaeus makes against heresies, in 180 AD, in book three, I mentioned earlier that he talked about apostolic succession. The reason that he says that he traces the lineage of bishops from Peter on down in Rome, as opposed to everywhere else, is because he says it’s a matter of necessity that every church should agree with this Church on account of its preeminent authority, that he’s recognizing this special place the successor of Peter has in the Bishop of Rome. And this is in the second century. This is extremely early on. So I would say you can find that all throughout the writings of the early Church Fathers. You find it in people like St. Optatus of Milevis, you find it all over the place. Augustine as well. So I would say that the idea of this is some later thing. It’s very hard to sustain historically.
Joe Heschmeyer: Hasan, I’m going to leave it there, but I would like to offer you Joe’s book, Pope Peter, because you said you have an open mind, you’d like to consider these things. If you’d like to consider it, we’ll send you a free copy of Pope Peter. Just hang on the line.