In this clip, Cy Kellett welcomes Joe Heschmeyer to discuss why some individuals leave the Catholic Church. Joe continues with details about the importance of community and guidance in faith, addressing the concerns raised by callers like Sarah.
Transcript:
Caller: I was a Catholic and I actually chose to leave the church. And it’s not for some great theological reason. I joined the church as a teenager because I love the history and the tradition that I felt like I was learning and et cetera. But what I have found, and as I said, it’s really not a theological reason, is just a real lack of community. I don’t have children, I’ve moved multiple states probably every two to three years. And I’ve never been to a parish that had a sense of community where I could meet people, particularly, you know, people that were working and professionals, etc. They seem to have some offerings for children, some for senior citizens and nothing else. You show up to Mass and you go home. The other issue that I had, and this is, this was probably what pushed me out the door, is it seems in our ever secular world, you know, particularly the United States, they never heard from any of the parishes. I went from really some, something I could put my teeth into in day to day living and how to, you know, here’s all these secular vices or things that I’m seeing and I just saw nothing from the, from the church. I saw no guidance on the day to day reality of living in the United States with things that the church says that you shouldn’t have, that you shouldn’t be doing. And even to this day I don’t see the church making statements anywhere. Oh, Sarah really kind of crushed me out. All right, let’s get Joe’s response and I’ll come back to you, Sarah, thanks.
Joe Heschmeyer: Well, first of all, I’m really sorry for the way you’ve been treated. I’m really sorry for feeling like alone in the parish. That should never happen. And I know that’s a lot of the experience of a lot of people and in some places in the U.S. probably more the norm than the exception. And it’s a problem that we, I think, as the community need to work on to make it feel more welcoming. And it’s hard to do. You know, we try to do with things like greeters and that’s good as far as it goes, but I think we need more like it needs to be something where as individual Catholics, we, we have that sense of community. I don’t, I don’t know if the solution is more, you know, parish programs. I think the solution is more a community sense of ownership that we need to be inviting people in. Like the, the Jews in the Old Testament take hospitality very seriously. You look at the way Abraham greets the angels in the book of Genesis and so on from there. Like you need to treat people with hospitality very seriously. And we sometimes treat that as kind of a trivial bit of etiquette where no, it really is connected to virtue. It really is connected to living holiness. So I’m sorry that that was not lived well in your experience. I won’t ask you what diocese or anything. I would say that thanks be to God is not universally the experience. You can find good churches in some places is harder to do than others, but you can find churches where you have more of that sense of community. And I think you can also be part of the solution by just saying, this is my church too. Like, you’re a baptized Catholic, you’re one of us. And just say, how do I make other people feel more at home in that? Because I think you’re absolutely right that in a lot of places everything is kind of structured for retirees or for children. And for everyone else it can be a little difficult. But things like, for instance, the parish is five minutes from here, has a fantastic mothers group that meets every week. And it’s been such a tremendous aid to stay at home moms who are trying to live the faith and maybe don’t get a lot of adult interaction, you know, those kind of things. But that’s, that’s not something where the pastor’s leaving it. That’s something where the moms are, are just putting in the time and effort and the sweat and making it happen. And I don’t know that there’s a solution other than that, that the people who feel really called and convicted there, if we don’t step up, nobody else is going to. So I think that’s the first thing. On the second one, I wanted to get a little clarification about what you mean about day to day living. Do you mean that you could use more like here’s guidance in terms of spirituality and how to live a prayer life? Well, do you mean like political things or social issues or what. What is it that you were looking for and not finding specifically and not
Caller: not necessarily from our priest, but probably from the priest at the time where I was going, it just seemed to be. And then going on up, for example, any of the myriad of social issues that you see today that are just seen as fine. Any of the ones that the church, I feel like historically has been very open about, about that this is wrong. I just feel like we just don’t talk about it anymore. Do you mean things like abortion? Well, I think abortion, but I think there’s so many more you know, it used to be. I mean, you could go down the list. Did you, did you feel one. But that’s a big one.
Cy Kellett: Did you feel like you get. Or do you feel like you get clearer moral teaching in your Protestant church than in the Catholic Church?
Caller: Yes, absolutely. Got it. Someone stands, someone is not scared to stand up and say, you should not be looking at pornography. I see what you’re saying. Okay, I’m following you now. Yes. That kind of thing. Right. Homosexuality. Right, right. Never heard that from the Catholic Church.
Joe Heschmeyer: You know what, Sarah, I would say this. It’s kind of. Your question is funny in a certain way. And please don’t mishear what I’m saying there. Just because so much of the world criticizes us for allegedly constantly talking about those things. But then you’ll find pockets where the preaching just kind of conspicuously avoids it. I do think younger clergy tend to be a little bolder about speaking into that. I also think there’s a certain pastoral sensitivity to the fact that it’s much easier to have those hard conversations one on one than in front of a couple thousand people, particularly maybe sensitive sexual topics when there might be a lot of children present. It’s very hard to know how do we talk about something like pornography in front of a mixed company? You know, like, that’s as tricky to do. And so I want to both respect the difficulty there, that there’s a reason why some priests really struggle to drive that home. Or maybe they speak a little too obliquely about it. There may be a little better about it in the confessional than they are at the pulpit because they’re able to do a little more. They can be a little more open about the details of it without scandalizing anyone. But at the same time, I think you’re right that there is a need to preach on those issues. But that really isn’t. To put it this way, that’s not really a church level problem. That’s an individual priest or parish level. Maybe that’s an issue where you talk to the pastor and say, I think we really could use a homily on X, Y or Z. And maybe he would be open to some words of encouragement, or maybe you’d find someone who, who preaches that a little more fervently down the street. Certainly you can find Catholics online. You can find statements from the USCCB and other Catholic sources. You can find papal statements about all of those issues and really explicitly kind of acknowledging where the problems are with those. You know, so I don’t know if that Helps. There’s not a lot that we can do about the fact that, like, maybe your local parish is a little too lukewarm. Or maybe the preaching isn’t what you would like it to be.
Cy Kellett: Could I just add, Joe, however, that like you said, not a churchwide problem, but one thing that is a churchwide problem is since about the 1960s, there has been an internal struggle in the Catholic Church that we should be honest and open about. Where bishops argue with other bishops, priests argue with other priests, Catholics argue with other Catholics about what should be the messaging, so to speak. And we have a serious messaging problem in that. I mean, right now, the US Bishops are frankly as divided as. I mean, not divided in the sense that huge numbers are on each side, but they’re very divided about how you should talk about. Even things like politicians who are supportive of abortion. They just can’t settle it. And so there is an unsettledness in the Catholic Church that I think you would not have gotten before the sexual revolution of the 1960s.
Joe Heschmeyer: Yeah, I think that’s totally true. I think the other thing worth pointing out here is that when Protestants are at that ill ease with one another, there tends to just be a schism. And, like, they go off and form different groups. And so then you can find the preacher who says the things you want them to say, who. Who really convicts other people in the sins they’ve got. Or you can find the, you know, the priest who. You know, the preacher, excuse me, who. Who goes in the opposite direction with the Catholic Church. It really is, you know, James Joyce called it, Here comes everybody. That you’ll find, you know, people who are very convicted of the teachings of the church. And unfortunately, there’s wheat and weeds in the church. There are people who have both legitimate disagreements, but also sometimes they just don’t seem to believe everything the Catholic Church believes and teaches. And so that is a real problem. I am admittedly blessed. I live in the archdiocese where the head is. Archbishop Naumann is the head of the Pro Life Committee for the usccb. So we don’t have the particular problem Sarah’s talking about. But I know a lot of places do where maybe the bishop doesn’t speak out as he should. Maybe the priests don’t feel comfortable speaking out as they should. I think that’s a problem with courage maybe as much as anything else. And I do think the best thing that can happen there is some polite but forceful kind of encouragement.
Cy Kellett: Sarah, I gotta leave it there. Cause we gotta take a break. As a matter of fact, I’m late for the break. But that was such a great conversation, I didn’t want to leave it. Thank you very much for the call. We’ll go to Alan Cleveland when we get back. We gotta take this very quick break.