Audio only:
Joe sits down today with Anna Sutton and chats finding your Catholic Wife, everyday apologetics and a lot more!
Transcript:
Joe:
Welcome back to Shameless Popery. I’m Joe Heschmeyer here to have a cup of Joe with my friend, Anna Sutton. Anna, welcome.
Anna:
Thank you. It’s so exciting to be here.
Joe:
And of course, as always, metal Mike. Mike, welcome.
Mike:
Good morning.
Joe:
I have to make an immediate disclaimer despite the name, Cup of Joe, which is centered around having a coffee and a conversation. Today, I’m fighting off a cold. I thought I’d infect Anna in person. And I’m drinking tea instead of coffee, which I know is kind of cheating. But this is, as tea goes, an excellent one. It is Yukon … Or no, what is it called? Yukon Gold. Not Yukon Gold. That’s potatoes. Yorkshire gold. That’s what it is. Yeah. I literally just went online a week ago and looked up best tea and found some people raving about how good this tea was and thought, yeah, I’ll trust them. It’s a popular British tea and it is excellent. And you, unfortunately.
Anna:
I know. I’m drinking water. So I drank coffee this morning and then I also drank one of the new Liquid IV energy drinks. I love Liquid IV and they have an energy version now. And then I was like, “Ugh, I don’t know if I should do more caffeine.”
Joe:
I find the title Liquid IV very confusing. Is there another thing you do intravenously that isn’t liquid?
Anna:
I don’t know. Maybe a drug.
Joe:
But
Anna:
They’re all liquid.
Joe:
Yeah, they’re all … I mean, if it’s in solid form, it’d be very hard to- It’d be
Anna:
Really
Joe:
Hard to intend. … put in your bloodstream. So casual advice about intravenous drug use unintentionally. All right. So yes, Mike is slaying with that shirt. Speaking of shirts, this shirt is also a gift from Anna Sutton that I received this morning.
Anna:
Yes. Which worked
Joe:
Out well because I’d spilled tea on the shirt I was wearing earlier, so this worked out perfectly.
Anna:
Happy birthday.
Joe:
Thank you very much. It is my belated birthday. And I am here talking about the perfect wife with a woman named Anna who is not my wife.
Anna:
Yes. Different Anna.
Joe:
Yes.
Anna:
To be clear.
Joe:
My wife actually suggested this show and you said you wanted to do a show on how men can find the perfect Catholic wife. And I have no idea what you’re about to tell us. So Anna, how do you find the perfect Catholic wife?
Anna:
Well, it’s an unfortunately very obvious answer. Well, it’s actually a very nuanced answer. My first reaction would be-
Joe:
Get really rich.
Anna:
Make a ton of money and be super ripped. No, be the perfect Catholic husband, but there’s a lot more nuance to it than that. I think what I see a lot online today is men who are really concerned about the wrong things in attracting women. They are super obsessed with being super ripped. And the whole manosphere atmosphere is like, it’s like what men look for in women and they think that’s what women are looking for in men, but they’re wrong.
Joe:
So you’re saying that the super fit physical attractiveness thing is more of a male projection onto what they would imagine?
Anna:
Exactly.
Joe:
This is kind of like the inverse of when women are imagining the men in their life are overthinking some situation and the man’s unaware the situation’s even going on.
Anna:
Exactly.
Joe:
They’re assuming the psychology they have on the opposite sex.
Anna:
Yeah. It’s the phenomena of you watch a rom-com and you realize no men like this exists. This is just men created by women. And the same way, a lot of the guys online are like attractive men created by men. So it’s not actually attractive to women. It’s, I would say a bit revolting actually for a lot of women.
Joe:
That’s strong language. Okay. Now that probably to some people is going to be bad news. I mean, for those of us who are not super ripped, maybe great news. But for a guy who’s like, “I am putting a lot of time and effort into my appearance. I’m going to the gym all the time and I’m doing all this partly to try to be attractive to a future spouse.” And now you’re telling me that you’re revolted by that.
Anna:
Well, it depends on your personality. If you’re a person who genuinely you genuinely enjoy working out, you like your time at the gym, this is like a hobby to you, then that’s great. It’s good to have a hobby. It’s really, really important to have a personality. That is the most important thing is having a personality and having confidence. So if that’s something you really like, that’s one thing. But if it’s like you’re literally just becoming obsessed with eating chicken and broccoli to be attractive to women, you’re focusing on all the wrong things.
Joe:
Okay. So if those are the wrong things-
Mike:
Can I quickly throw in-
Joe:
Yes, Mike, coming in from the top
Mike:
Row. So I also want to counterpoint that with zero of the men in rom-coms are fat.
Joe:
True.
Anna:
True. But the thing about real life is it’s not a rom-com unless you’re like Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey.
Joe:
Oh my gosh.
Anna:
For the rest of us, it’s just normal. So this is another big point I was going to make. It’s to find a good Catholic spouse, and I think especially for men since they’re so visually driven, you cannot look at people online. You have to look at real people in real life and interact with real people in real life because everything is fake on the internet. We all know this, but I feel really bad for young guys who are kind of growing up in this intense online culture because I think it would actually probably be a very hard adjustment to make to see women online all the time and all the filters and all the makeup and all the fakeness and then try to adjust that to real women. And I also feel bad if you marry a super hot girl and then she cranks out a bunch of kids-
Joe:
Cranks out.
Anna:
Well, if she’s Catholic, she might crank them out. Then that might be kind of hard adjustment to make too. You really need to be grounded in reality and women need to be grounded in reality as well, but this talk is about finding a wife, not a husband.
Joe:
Fair enough. I mean, it’s a good thing to remember that beauty is fleeting. Several people in the chat have pointed out that Jack Black is beloved by women and is a great … I mean, look, you would be surprised. I mean, women like Jack Black because he seems confident and funny, et cetera. And I think there’s plenty of men in real life who are like that. So okay, we’ve seen what not to do.
Anna:
Yes.
Joe:
And we’ve seen not to focus in either direction simply on the surface level stuff that goes away with age. What should we do?
Anna:
What should you do? Well, you should just go home to your wife. Yes, absolutely. Congratulations. Okay. So the number one thing you need to do is you need to be confident. I think the key to confidence is recognizing your strengths and weaknesses and being okay with them. Not that you never stop trying to improve your weaknesses, but you look at the stuff you’re really good at, you look at the stuff you’re not so good at and you’re like, “Okay, this is who I am.” If you’re like, “I’m a mid guy, I’m kind of a nerd,” that’s great. Be that. That is okay. You can definitely attract a woman. There’s no problems there. You just have to be like, “This is who I am.” And recognize that that’s a similar woman you’re going to attract. You’re not going to be a mid guy and get a 12 on a scale of 10 women.
Joe:
Said
Anna:
Contra. I mean, yes.
Joe:
There’s a lid for every pot.
Anna:
Exactly. So keep that in mind. And then just don’t be afraid to actually approach women and put yourself out there a little bit. If you’re really terrified of rejection, you’re never going to get anywhere. And the thing is, if somebody rejects you, it’s not really about you. It’s really about them. I think a lot of people get frozen in this fear of rejection, and it’s okay if you get rejected. It’s not the end of the world. Everyone gets rejected. It doesn’t lessen your value as a person at all.
Joe:
Still
Anna:
Hard. Yeah. I mean, I’ve been rejected. It happens.
Joe:
Yeah. There
Anna:
Was that one time in fourth grade.
Joe:
This is unhelpful. Okay. Speaking of … No, not actually speaking of mid and nerdy, but shout out to Matt Frad and his wife, Cameron, who are watching in a green.
Anna:
Oh, great.
Joe:
Hi,
Anna:
Matt Frad. Big fan.
Joe:
Yes.
Anna:
Okay. The other thing, there are things you can do. Okay. So here are a few of the key tips. One, smell good. Oh my gosh, you have to smell good. Shower, put on deodorant. And if you don’t have a signature cologne, get one. I was thinking about this last night. I was thinking, Andy has a signature cologne. Andy’s my husband. I could recognize the smell anywhere. I also think my ex- boyfriend from 15 years ago, I would still recognize the smell of. The scent memory trigger is really strong. I
Joe:
Mean, I’ve met some people with strong smells, but it’s not always a- Well,
Anna:
That’s why I said smell good.
Joe:
Yes. Yes.
Anna:
Not
Joe:
Just distinctive, but distinctive in a positive
Anna:
Direction. Yes. Good is key. And then the other thing is if you’re picking out clothes and you’re doing things like this, just be generally aware. Pay attention to what colors look good on you. Take a picture of yourself, put it in chat GTPT. Say, “What color should I wear? Wear things that fit.” So there are basic things, but honestly, oh yeah, this person said not ax. Yes.
Joe:
That’s another woman and she is right. So I mean, I would actually say on the cologne thing, don’t try to do it on your own. This is something where it can be very helpful to have a woman you trust in your life who can tell you what smells good and
Anna:
How much. Oh
Joe:
Yeah. Because I think the temptation is to way overdo it.
Anna:
Or just go to the counter of a Nordstrom.
Joe:
Eric says, “Please don’t let Anna think she’s the first one to be in the studio collaborating with you. ” This is true. You taught me it was possible, but you’ll notice now we have two mics, which is less awkward than to try to share the one mic back and forth like we’re two lead singers in a band.
Anna:
A boy band. Everyone loves a boy band.
Joe:
Okay. So smell good. Take care of yourself. Now taking care of yourself from your perspective is less about getting super ripped and more about just having a tidy appearance. Is that-
Anna:
Yes. Be a healthy, balanced, human person. Okay. I was talking to my niece who’s just, she’s been into this guy forever and they’re finally together. I’m very happy for her. But okay, my niece is incredibly beautiful. She’s a 10 out of 10. She plays the violin. She’s extroverted. She can literally have any man. The guy she’s really into is kind of goofy, kind of lanky. And she told me multiple times over the last couple years, I feel kind of silly that I’m so into this guy, but I cannot get over him. And it’s because he makes her laugh. She likes being around him. She enjoys his company. There were tons of other guys into this girl, but she wanted the one that she had fun with.
Joe:
Yeah. So let’s talk about that because I think you’re onto what I have found to be the key. Someone in the comment said, this is literally exactly like Boomers telling young people to just buy a house like they did. This is detached from reality. I don’t think you’re right at all. This is basic human-
Anna:
I mean, we’re both successfully married, so I
Joe:
Would say- And I think they’d just be like, “You got married in a different age.” I mean, whatever. You’ve been married longer than we have. It’s true. But no, I think the kind of black pilled, oh, it’s just impossible now. I understand completely why it’s harder now in a lot of ways. If you’re spending a lot of your time online and you’re not getting out and you’re not having in- person interactions, then yeah, a lot of that probably seems hopelessly unrealistic, but there is an actual world offline and it isn’t as impossible as people online will sometimes lead you to belief. So I agree. I’d never had trouble dating and didn’t have trouble vocationally in that regard at all, but partly it’s because, as you said, if you’re just confident and you can make someone laugh and you’re not self-loathing and self-doubting, that can be very helpful.
So I’m going to throw out a thesis. I’ve thrown out
Anna:
Once
Joe:
Or twice before, and I want to see your take on it.
Anna:
I bet it’ll be similar.
Joe:
Okay. So the take is this, it’s much easier to talk about a male standard of female beauty than the other way around, because some women really have a certain body type or type of guy or personality or whatever. And one of the things that can make it very frustrating as a man is that those can be very varied, that one woman’s ideal man, even as you were saying, this guy is not what you would imagine as the ideal.
Anna:
There’s
Joe:
A lot of that that happens. So if you’re trying to find a common ground, I would say the common ground is this, and here’s where I want you to disagree if you do. Women are looking for men who are strong, but that strength is very particular. And we can talk about it in two ways. Sometimes she’s approaching things with a certain set of needs, wants, desires. She is worried about physical safety or she’s worried about financial insecurity or she’s worried about something like this and a guy who has his act together in that area. So maybe it is a gem bro. It’s a guy who at least works out and he takes himself very seriously. He looks like he can hold his own in a fight. And so it makes her feel safe. Or maybe it’s a guy who he’s got his act together in terms of job and everything else.
He’s responsible. And so she knows she’s not going to be just in dire straits in that regard. Whatever it is, the common thread, even as varied as these guys seem to be, is a sense of security and safety from whatever danger she perceives, that’s half of it. The other half would be, if a guy seems confident and to have his act together, that this communicates that you can be safe with this guy because he’s … A guy who seems insecure, a guy who seems like he totally doesn’t have his act together, doesn’t seem like someone you can just be safe with. If you get in an Uber and the driver’s just sweating bullets and they’re like, “I’m really afraid we’re going to crash.” You’re like, “Well, I actually don’t want to be in this car anymore because- ” Kick me out, Paul. Yeah, maybe you’re the greatest driver in the world, but you’re communicating a complete lack of confidence.
And I think one of the self-defeating cycles that people can go into, and I will say men can go into, I think it’s true in both directions, is approaching it with this lack of confidence and being like, “This is not going to work,” and then it becomes sort of self-fulfilling.
Anna:
Yeah. I mean, every woman, almost every single woman I know has to push and encourage her husband in his career pursuits. I think men have this deep internal sense that they’re constantly going to fail. I feel like it’s part of the curse of Adam, the working the ground thing. They’re like, “But it’s okay. Fake it till you make it. ” But I do agree with your statement that women want men strong, but I also think there are a lot of, that you feel safe with, but I think there are a lot of women who kind of like the bad boy, who kind of like somebody who’s going out on a limb who kind of like-
Joe:
But isn’t that also a kind of strength, even
Anna:
If it’s
Joe:
Maybe a dysfunctional kind?
Anna:
So I would say the strength can just be like you sort of know the direction you’re going. Even if you’re really not there and you’re really all over the map, if you are really confident in what you want and what you’re pursuing, that in and of itself is like, “Okay, I can get on board with this. ” So I got married super young and my husband was also super young and all he had was like a plan and it was enough. I was like, “Okay, he’s got a plan. We can do this. ” And it was a long struggle and a lot of years of school and training, but I always knew that he had a direction he was moving in. And so I think that’s really important. But sorry, I was still thinking back to the person who said that we’re detached and it is unfair.
I do feel for people who are trying to date with a heavily, heavily online world, but I think getting offline and meeting real people is one of the most important things you can do, like get offline because it’s not real. It’s not real and it’s not real life.
Joe:
I mean, even maybe worse than that, I’ve talked about this. I think I talked about this maybe on Pines one time. Barry Schwartz has a book called The Paradox of Choice, and you can find talks that he’s given on this same theme. And one of the points that he makes is when you have too many choices, you make worse decisions because you can have kind of option paralysis and this easily happens online. Or if you’ve got an app, even a good app, even I’m not talking about like sleazy stuff, but even like … I mean, shout it to Catholic Match. A lot of people find their
Anna:
Spouse
Joe:
On there. So I’m not knocking the apps themselves. I’m knocking a certain approach where you’re just like, “Okay, there’s a thousand choices and I have to choose the best possible choice.” That’s actually not good discernment. Imagine if somebody was discerning the priesthood and rather than saying like, “Well, where am I from or what diocese do I live in or what diocese am I connected to? ” They said, “I’m going to look at every diocese on earth and find the best fit for me. ” That
Anna:
Person
Joe:
Is never getting ordained. That person’s going nowhere. And I think we can, that’s obviously a ridiculous example who would go through that many options. People go through that many options on the dating scene where they’re looking at the profiles of hundreds, thousands of people over the course of however many years. And I don’t think we’ve maybe factored in how unhealthy that is, that when you’re constantly comparing the person who is proximate to the ideal person who might exist on the internet if you just look some more, I think in both directions, you have people doing that and it can be incredibly destructive for a couple of reasons. One, because you don’t feel like taking a chance on anyone, and two, you’re comparing them quite unfairly to basically an imaginary person.
Anna:
And
Joe:
Then you can become really, yeah, really distraught about the whole thing, really black pulled about the whole thing where you’re just like, “Ah, women are horrible or men are horrible or whatever online because you’re dealing with the kind of unattainable ones who are having a thousand people reach out to them.”
Anna:
And
Joe:
Meanwhile, this person you’d be completely happy with, you’re not taking a chance on because-
Anna:
Yeah, and she’s sitting one pew over in church or whatever. Well, and the reality is every single marriage and relationship has issues. You trade people, you’re just going to trade problems. Or honestly, based on the thousands of conversations I’ve had with women about their marriages, it’s actually a lot of times just the same problems over and over and over again. The amount of time somebody complains, says something lovingly and supportively about their husband and everyone else in the room is like, “Ah, yes, my husband does that too.” It’s like men are all kind of the same at the end of the day. I’ll let the men in the
Joe:
Comments decide if they agree with that. Actually, maybe we should ask the women in the comments
Anna:
Too. But like that to say, another thing that I think is really important to realize when you’re going into a relationship is to remember, you change a lot. The most important thing entering a relationship is that you’re both pursuing God and that you’re willing to change based on your convictions about truth. Because I think about, I got married at 21, I was a totally, totally different person. My husband was a totally different person, but we’ve now moved forward together and become more and more like each other and have more and more in common and are better and better friends because we’re both pursuing that same goal of following Christ. And if you’re both doing that, you’re going to be okay even though you’re going to have problems. Everyone has problems and everyone ages, everyone gains weight, loses weight, all the things. You can’t be so focused on getting this exact perfect thing right.
I mean, it’s hard because on one hand it is like one of the biggest decisions in your life, but you have to not mess up the most important thing, which is that they’re pursuing Christ.
Joe:
Yeah, that is the actual most important.
Anna:
I mean,
Joe:
When we’re talking about vocation, like vocation comes from the Latin Vocari to call and everyone’s calling is to be a saint. And if you’re pursuing your primary vocation, sainthood, well, that makes it easier to discern secondary vocation. Am I called to the priesthood? Am I called to the religious life? Am I called the marriage? And then you have this kind of tertiary vocation, which is just what is God calling you to in this particular moment? And if you are unsure about number two, do number one and number three as well as you can. And I think it goes a long way. If you are striving to be a saint and not just striving to be attractive to women, I think you actually become more attractive to women.
Anna:
Someone
Joe:
Who- A
Anna:
Thousand percent. Because again, it’s that safety. You feel like, okay, this guy cares about the right things, so I’m going to … I like that.
Mike:
Can I actually ask an important question
Joe:
Regarding CFP
Mike:
And stuff like that? So I think a big worry a lot of guys have, especially single guys, is finances. How much are women thinking about finances and what are they thinking about finances, I think would be a really important one to address.
Anna:
Yeah.
Joe:
When you dig, are you looking for gold or other precious jewels?
Anna:
I think you’re looking for a work ethic. Nevermind. Precious jewels. Come on, Joe. Low hanging fruit. I know. You’re looking for a work ethic. Finances go up and down, things come and go. Having a job is really, really important. And again, having that feeling that you’re going somewhere, you have goals. And those goals might change, but it’s the willingness to pursue those goals and to work hard. If you’re lazy, that is the worst. That is the most unattractive thing. A super fit, lazy dude is way less attractive than a hardworking, like ugly guy, honestly, who smells good.
Joe:
Yeah. I mean, I suspect the answer here, at least in part, is that it depends on the woman. Some women, it matters more. I mean, even culturally, I’ve talked to women who are from different ethnic backgrounds where their parents are immigrants and financial security was a huge thing for them and they were kind of taught to really seek that out. And different communities are going to value that more highly. Different families are going to value that more highly. And I think as a result, maybe there’s some women who, if you’re broke and trying to get your act together, that’s not going to be good enough for them and they’re not for you.
Anna:
Yeah, that’s fine.
Joe:
Discernmental.
Anna:
If that’s that big of a deal, then they’re probably a little shallow.
Joe:
And that’s probably going to be their issue as they try to discern a Catholic husband. So I think that’s maybe one thing to really stress because I see a lot of anxiety around, I’m doing this thing that seems like the right thing and these women online are telling me it’s not good. And I would say this, one, maybe that’s a sign to not do that, but two, maybe it’s just a sign that that’s not for you. I mean, anything you do online, you’re going to find people who are like, “You’re literally the worst person in the world for having
Anna:
That
Joe:
Opinion or for doing that. ”
Anna:
Anything you see online is bogus.You look at freaking the most beautiful woman I’ve seen and half the comments are like, “She’s kind of ugly.” I’m like, “Really?” There’s a 0% chance if you ran into her and encountered her in real life, you would not immediately be attracted to her. Men and women are both ridiculous in online comments. Online comments are the worst place to get your facts, the absolute worst place to get any information about what the opposite sex wants. And also, that’s the other thing. There’s so much to be said for chemistry that happens when you’re in person with a person. If you’re on a dating app and somebody’s interested in you and you maybe don’t know if you’re attracted to them, get together because you might have a lot of chemistry in person that you never would’ve known you had just looking at a picture of them.
Or you might be like, “I’m not that attracted to them.” And you date for a couple months and suddenly you’re like, “Oh, I’m super attracted to them now.” You like them.
Joe:
Yeah. I think that’s trying to discern a person just from reading about them online or even sometimes talking … I’m mixed on this. I talked to my wife online. I wasn’t discerning her as a future spouse, but I got to know her just through mutual friends online. We were in a little online consecration group together. There’s a whole story there for another day, but I knew I enjoyed her personality. I didn’t actually know I was attracted to her. I shared that story. I know on Pints where I didn’t like her profile picture. And so I just was like, “Oh yeah, she’s a nice friend.” And I was in seminary at the time. I wasn’t looking to date or anything like this. And later when I realized she was actually really attractive, then I was like, “Oh, I’ve got to be a little more careful because I can’t just treat her like a bro.” And I mean, now we’re married and have kids.
But one of the things that I think is a real takeaway from that is that the in- person interaction can be totally different. I mean, everyone’s had this experience where you talk to everyone who spends a lot of time online has had this experience. You spend time talking to somebody online, then you meet them in person and they’re completely different than you expected.
Or sometimes it’s for the better, someone’s for the worst. But at a certain point, if you’re going to marry someone, you’ve got to spend time with them. So getting that out of the way at some point seems good.
Anna:
Yeah. I was seeing there were several comments- Oh,
Joe:
Actually, Pope Defender says, “I feel women’s standards are often unrealistic, but if a man is assertive enough and seems competent, they can win them over.”
Anna:
Yes, absolutely. I have a theory that anybody can make any other person fall for them within reasonable bounds, but I would say they’re pretty wide bounds if they’re just strategic enough about it.
Joe:
I wouldn’t go as far as you’ve just gone, but I think somewhere in between people’s idea … Because you can have a list of, “Here’s what I’m looking for in a future spouse, and it’s going to be a list that 0% of people meet.” And this is actually one of the dangers-
Anna:
Yeah, don’t make a list of first.
Joe:
Or excuse me, dating apps, because one of the stats that I heard is that a lot of women are filtering for six foot and taller.
Anna:
Oh, wait, hold on. I want to respond to this. How do I meet my trad wife if there are no single ladies in my TLM parish? Okay, you don’t marry a perfect trad wife. If a woman has not been expected to be a stay-at-home wife for years, she’s not going to be good at it. It’s a huge learning curve. Learning to make dinner every night, keep a house clean, organize everything, manage kids. This is a massive learning curve. It would be like asking to step into a job with zero training and be perfect at it. So anybody you married, if they haven’t been married or have been managing a home, it’s going to be like a couple years of figuring it out. I
Joe:
Suspect that this is one of those areas where you just say, make sure you have the same idea for what you’re expecting your marriage to be like. It’s not going to be happy. Actually, there’s interesting social science data on this because when men and women have different expectations of gender roles in the home,
Anna:
That
Joe:
Is quite unsurprisingly a source of a lot of conflict.
Anna:
Oh yeah. I
Joe:
Think-
Anna:
And so
Joe:
If she’s expecting, we’re going to do equal amounts of the housework and he’s expecting her to do the lion share or all of the housework, that’s going to be a fight. Unsurprising.
Anna:
Oh yeah. And if you’re a woman, the 1% of women on this channel and you’re expecting your husband to do 50% of the housework, just stop.
Joe:
Let the record show this channel is 15% women.
Anna:
Okay, 15% of women. Your husband’s not going to do half of the housework. It’s not going to happen. There you go. Freed you up, guys. You’re welcome.
Joe:
Yeah. But I think it’s a good question because there are …
Anna:
Well, you said Joe had to call BS on that one. Which one did Joe call BS on? I don’t
Joe:
Remember which thing I did.
Anna:
I think we …
Joe:
Oh yeah. So I was starting to say with the ideal list where women will often have a longer list of things that they’re hoping for in men and that can become unrealistic. Now, the pro of that is most women, at least over a pretty early age, realize, okay, I’m not going to get 100% of the things on my list. And maybe the guy I’m looking for is very different than what I thought I wanted.
Anna:
And
Joe:
They can do the more particular discernment. If somebody says, “What’s your ideal vacation?” You’re like, “Well, it’d be great to be by the mountains and by the beach in a resort and have it be cheap and all of this. ” And it’s like, okay, maybe you’ve left zero options. But then if somebody’s like, “Hey, do you want to go to this place with me? ” You’re like, “Yeah, that sounds great actually.” It wasn’t what your list had looked like because your list was completely unrealistic and And abstract and disembodied. But once there’s an actual particular concrete discernment, it goes better. And so that’s, I think, one end of things. But I will say with dating apps where you can put those filters in and try to force that list onto things, there is a lot of unhappiness caused by
Anna:
That. It would be so lonely. Well, and putting things in a really tight box and then expecting it all to work out, that doesn’t work in anything in life. Nothing works out quite the way you expect it to. And you stretch yourself off from what might really be good for you. You might kind of think you want someone like your dad and then you get that and you realize it just brings up all this issue and you don’t want someone like your dad.
Joe:
My wife’s a therapist. If you want to do this episode, I might have her step in to-
Anna:
Yeah, I’m not a therapist.
Joe:
I meant to handle your dad issues. Somebody asked you to describe your perfect date.
Anna:
Oh my goodness. On
Joe:
April 25th, you just need a light jacket. That’s a misking genealogy reference. I’ve only seen the meme. I’ve never seen the movie.
Anna:
Okay. My perfect day, I would say just the other night, my husband took me on a perfect date. I was in a really bad mood. I’d been in a three-day funk. I couldn’t pull out of it. I’d gone running. I’d done all the things. I was trying to do it. And he was like, “All right, we’re going to get you in a good mood.” So we left the kids. We walked down to a restaurant. He bought me some whiskey. He just made me laugh. He told dumb jokes. And by the end of the night, I was in a good mood. It was just being with him, with a person who likes me as a person and focused on me- Spirited conversation. Yeah. And made me laugh. Exactly. Spirited. Yeah. Whiskey helps everything. So it’s just like a perfect date is just being with someone you really like.
And I think that’s what it comes down to. There’s so much stuff around dating. There’s so many expectations and there’s so much stress and anguish. I mean, it’s a terrible process. I’m so happy to not be in this process anymore. But you really got to boil it back down to the basics of like, who do I like to be around? What do I like? And then you can probably be attracted to that person.
Joe:
Yeah. Well said.
Anna:
Okay. We can’t expect husbands to do half the work. How about 30 minutes of work a day? Husband cleans up dinner while wife puts baby to bed. Is that a fair expectation? I mean, I guess that really depends on your husband’s work schedule and your work schedule. Every household is different. If your husband works really long hours and then … Okay, here’s my philosophy. I don’t know if this is going to be popular. I’m not doing a pick me. I’m going to sound like a pick me girl and I really don’t. If your husband- You’ve been picked. And you don’t need to- Sorry. If your husband works is the 100% income earner, then the household jobs are your job. The kids are fifty fifty because they are half his. So I would do it the opposite way. Maybe your husband likes that better. My philosophy is my husband’s the sole income earner.
When he comes home, the household stuff I do not expect him to do. However, I will hand him a baby because it’s his baby. You
Joe:
Also have two twin infants.
Anna:
Yes, yes. Also, I literally am just tired. Yeah, we have twin boys. So we have six kids. And so he does bedtime. I will say, I’ve clocked out. I’ll say, “Babies are fed. Everyone’s showered. Everyone’s in pajamas. I’m clocking out. ” And then I jet and take a bath. And he sits down and reads the Bible and prays with them and talks to him. And he interacts with the kids, but I consider the household job my work. But
Joe:
He- Can I actually add one more thing in favor of that? Because we do, I think pretty similar things. Frequently, if we’ve got stuff that needs to get done at home, we’ve got three small kids. I will take the kids out of the house so my wife can do the stuff in the house. So she should be able to get 20
Anna:
Times
Joe:
Stuff more done. She’s going to be better at doing that stuff. I get to spend time with the kids and I’m working a lot. This is better for her. It’s better for me. It’s better for the kids. Where if you’re doing everything with the kids as the wife and expecting your husband to do stuff around the house that isn’t going to be to your satisfaction, my concern is that that’s going to leave everybody less happy. And that’s a little different with the baby because if you’re putting an infant to sleep and you’re nursing the baby and everything else, and you can’t just pass that off to your husband, fine. That’s fair.
Anna:
Yeah. Well, and I would also say if both people are working, it changes the rules a little bit because if the wife is bringing in part of the income, you’re going to have to divide up. Household tasks are a lot of tasks.
Joe:
Yeah. And I guess maybe the best thing to say is the happiest is going to be something you work out together. Like my family of origin, my dad loves to cook and he’s really good at it. And my mom likes to bake. She doesn’t like to grill or anything like this. And so main course, my dad enjoys making it. He finds it relaxing. It works out great. And he also is a much tidier person. Shout out to my mom. I’ve interroted those jeans. And so he will often have things a certain way after the meal. And this works better for them. And one of the reasons it works better for them is it isn’t like some abstract set of expectations being imposed on the situation where he’s not just like, “I read that women ought to be doing this, and so you do all of this.
” And it’s not like she just said, “Well, I think you should be doing fifty fifty, so I’m going to make you … ” That would not work as well. Know your own strengths and weaknesses, your own desires, your own shortcomings, and it’s going to be sacrificial, but I think I wouldn’t keep a record of wrongs. I wouldn’t try to do a what percentage is everyone doing. And I would just try to do more than you think is your fair share and not be bitter about it. Yeah,
Anna:
Don’t be bitter.
Joe:
Take it as an opportunity to be like, “This is the person I love.”
Anna:
Hold on. I want to go to these because there was one comment that said each thousk should give 100% every day. And then a person that said, the percentage, it depends on who’s sick, who got little sleep. That’s a really important point. This is a really important point in relationships in general. You are in a partnership and there are going to be times where one person is the weaker link. You’re not both going to be giving your best all the time. When my husband was in the rigors of his work training, he was not able to do basically anything. I don’t know
Joe:
If you said this. He’s a doctor.
Anna:
Yeah, he’s a physician.
Joe:
His prep to become a doctor sounded insane.
Anna:
Just the
Joe:
Hours are horrible.
Anna:
Oh, it was awful. Awful, awful. Anyway, so at that point, I did a huge amount. But then when I was pregnant with twins and I was sick for nine months, he did way more than I did. I spent a lot of time laying in bed growing two humans. So you really do have to … This goes back to when you’re looking for a spouse, find someone that’s moving in the same direction as you, because what matters is that you’re focused on the same goal, you’re moving in the same … You want the same things. Okay, when we were open to life and we got pregnant again, he knew, okay, Anna’s not her best self when she’s pregnant. I always say it’s a woman’s burden to bear a baby. It’s a man’s burden to live with a pregnant woman. And it is a burden. Women are not delightful pregnant.
Some of them are. I’m not.
Joe:
Anyone who’s upset by that, just remember Anna said that. I did
Anna:
Not say that. Yes, I said that. It’s true.
Joe:
I do think actually there’s the idea that … It sounds crazy to even say out loud, that being pregnant is work is something that sometimes I think as men we can be in need of reminding of.
Anna:
Oh, you mean like 20 times a day? Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes. It’s so hard.
Joe:
I’ve had a big meal and been tired after the meal. I don’t know if this is easier or harder than that, but …
Anna:
Yes. Growing a human is so hard. So that’s a really important thing. If you’re a Catholic man looking for a wife who wants to have a lot of kids, recognize that is a huge ask. Burying a lot of children … I’ve had six and I’ve had miscarriages. So this is a huge demand on your body. I agree, pregnant women are not delightful most of the time. It’s true. Good job. You’re doing good work. Hang in there. The baby will be worth it. It’ll love you. So your woman is not going to be your wife, your trad wife, you find, who bears you 12 children. You got to respect the work she’s doing and what she’s putting her body through. A woman’s work wears on her body in a way a man’s work does- I think it
Joe:
Can depending on the work, but yeah.
Anna:
Yeah. We’ve all seen the aging presidents. Oh
Joe:
Yeah. I’m pulling up a catechism paragraph,
Anna:
Don’t we? Oh, okay. Most women do not marry a doctor. Difficult to live on one income for the most. I didn’t marry a doctor. I married a man going into medical school. And yes, you’re right. For a long time I worked. It was very difficult. We had really tight finances. A lot of people do have to work and that’s fine. I don’t have any problem. We read Proverbs 31, the Proverbs 31 woman was bringing in a ton of income to their house. I don’t think it’s the end of the world for a woman to work.
Joe:
And right, every individual and every couple and every family, they’re going to have unique gifts, talents, situations that they’re in, difficulties that they’re facing and everything. So it’s not a one size fits all sort of fix. There is, Gabriela asks, “Am I the only woman here?” No, but 15%.
Anna:
I’m here.
Joe:
What about finding a Catholic husband? While we’ve got you. We
Anna:
Can talk about finding a Catholic husband.
Mike:
Real quick, before we get to that, you brought up Proverbs 31 and we’re probably going to anger a whole bunch of people in the trad space, but I think Lila Rose actually had a really interesting insight into this is we have this idea of the man goes out one income household, that’s the trad way of doing things. Let’s think about what trad was before trad. The woman was out in the fields with that subsistence family farm or whatever or state helping with the work because it had to be pitched and then done for the survival of the family and the growth of the family. So you have to really, I don’t know, I’ll let you guys opine on that.
Joe:
Yeah. I mean, even right now, we both live in Kansas City. You don’t have to go far outside of Kansas City to find people who are still doing the family farm thing. And so the idea, we sometimes have a vision of the past that’s really kind of a brief vision of upper class Victorian life and maybe was never a realistic ideal and isn’t realistic for the vast majority of people. So if the idea is just, well, of course your wife’s not going to have to do any work, it gets trickier in a lot of these situations.
Anna:
Yeah. I actually have an article about this on Catholic Answers called The Perfect Wife, and I go through Proverbs 31. I’m really passionate about this topic because not only is the woman working, the woman also has an insane amount of freedom to make decisions. The other thing that you shouldn’t be if you’re looking for a good woman is controlling. If you want your woman to fully blossom into her perfect trad wife’s self, you’re going to have to give her a lot of freedom to explore and mess up and find what works for her. She’s a person. Women are people and they need to find their own process and you kind of need to be hands off and figure out what’s going to work for her in the same way that when you go to work, you don’t want her nitpicking and telling you how to do your job.
It’s a job. If you think about running a home as a job, then yeah, you got to let her do it the way that works for her and she needs to let you do your realm the way that works for you.
Joe:
I found the line I was looking
Anna:
For earlier in the
Joe:
Catechism. And it’s actually in the context of family life with parents and children, but it’s something that I think is well worth kind of bearing in mind. Paragraph 22, 27, “Children in turn contribute to the growth and holiness of their parents. Each and everyone should be generous and tireless and forgiving one another for offenses, quarrels, injustices, and neglect. Mutual affection suggests this. The charity of Christ demands it. ” That’s a really tough standard. I just dropped my phone. It’s a really tough standard and it is a standard nevertheless that I think is worth bearing in mind. We can talk about all of this stuff in the abstract, in the ideal, in the what does a good day look like, what does a good marriage look like when things are going well? But the reality is, as you said earlier, there are going to be hard times.
There are going to be days where one of you wakes up cranky or maybe you both do, or you’re having a rough day at work, or you’re going through a slump, you’re dealing with depression or you’re having a tough time at the office or whatever else. And there are going to be strains internal and external on your marriage. And so having a spirit of just incredible forgiveness seems just so important to remember as you are kind of embarking on that journey or maybe as you’re on that journey already.
Anna:
Yeah. I was okay. Should we circle back? Somebody else had to find a perfect husband.
Joe:
Yeah, sorry. I’m already taken.
Anna:
The one, he’s gone. Well, I did say you shouldn’t be obsessed with fitness. So there you
Joe:
Go. Yeah. Yeah. Fitness, food in this mouth.
Anna:
Okay. So I would say remember similarly, okay, men mature better in relationships than outside of relationships. So if you find a guy who’s really committed to his faith, then he might not be a perfect husband, but if he has a good character and he’s moving in a good direction, then it’s hard because I don’t want to say like, “You can fix that because you don’t want to … ” But it’s true that he’s going to mature within your relationship. Women tend to mature quicker outside of relationships, men tend to mature quicker in relationships. And so he’s going to grow into that and you got to give him the space to do that the same way a man has to give the woman a space to do that. And then as he’s pursuing his career and his goals and all the things outside the home, yeah, you got to give him time to figure it out.
And as long as he’s pursuing Christ and he’s honest and he has a good character, you can build him up to be the best version of himself. And that’s really what marriage is. It’s a sanctifying process. You’re building each other up to be the best versions of yourself. So you can assume that you’re the worst versions of yourself before you get married.
Joe:
Yeah. So I think a couple things. In light of you saying that, I want to balance that out with some advice I heard from a priest, and if you’re mad at this advice, be mad at this. I’ll leave him anonymous so he doesn’t get any hate male. He said in his experience as a priest when dealing with marital difficulties, they largely amounted to women being mad that their husbands didn’t change and men being mad that their wives had. And I thought that there was actually something quite insightful about that,
That you’re going to age, you’re going to change. Some of the vevacity and spunk you have in your twenties is not going to follow you through as you just get older. And so go into marriage with eyes wide open on that. On the other hand, if you imagine you can just change and fix the person and they have real problems that they’re not working on, that’s delusional. So if I can nuance your advice, and let’s see what you think about this, you’re in the buy low school of thought on this. If you’re looking for a stock, you don’t look for the stock that’s already reached its peak, $300 a share. Yes. You look at the stock that’s at $10 a share, but that you know has the fundamentals to … You’re looking for the next Tesla. Totally.
Anna:
You’re looking
Joe:
For the next Apple, you’re looking for the next whatever.
Anna:
That’s where you win big.
Joe:
Exactly. But you can’t necessarily just … If you were buying a stock, you’re not like, “I’m going to go control the company and get it there.” No, you have to find the stock that you think is going to get there and be part of it, but you can’t control it. That is a difference. Where you can’t fix him, but if he seems like the kind of guy who’s amenable to your influence, who is serious about becoming a saint and becoming the best version of himself to use the kind of Matthew Kelly expression, that’s I think the best you can do. Is that right or wrong?
Anna:
Yeah, no, I think that’s true. I mean, it’s not so much about changing him. I would say it’s about cultivating and growing the good things you see in them. So if it’s a good seed, like a good foundation, you can grow it, but you’re not going to change these core personality things. The things that my husband does that annoy me, my oldest son does the exact same things. They annoy me. It’s just genetic. They both have this sense of humor where they like to annoy you. It is what it is. It’s not changing for
Joe:
The record. As an outsider to it, she’s giving it a bad rap, but it’s great.
Anna:
Oh, he loves to do anything that … Which is fine. And it does make me laugh even and I’m like, “Stop.” But at the end of the day, it makes me laugh. So you’re not going to change things, but you are going to empower that person to grow into the best version of themselves.
Joe:
Yes. And yeah, you’re not buying low to sell high, you’re buying low to get dividends for life. Thanks, Pope defenders.
Anna:
Yes.
Joe:
That better stock analogy there. Gospel comes in. War
Anna:
Temperaments will not change for the most part. Yes.
Joe:
Austin shared something from a theology professor that I thought was very good. He said, “I’ll never forget a wise theology professor saying you’re getting married. That’s a radical thing. You’re marrying who they are today and who they
Anna:
Become.”
Joe:
And I’m reminded here of it’s a line credited to C.S. Lewis. I’ve never seen it in Lewis’s own writings, but I’ve seen it in multiple places, so maybe it’s real, I don’t know. But he basically objected to becoming Catholic, not on the basis of what the Catholic church teaches today, but on the idea that, “Well, I have to agree with what the Catholic church might teach tomorrow.” And so yeah, there is a radical thing saying yes to your bride here on earth or saying yes to the bride of Christ. I’m leaning heavily on that because Austin is currently Anglican. So this is ostensibly about marriage, but that was also, hey, vocational decisions are really big, so are occlusives.
Anna:
They are. We’re converts actually. We grew up evangelical. We were Anglican for a few years, and then my husband and I both converted together.
Joe:
Okay. Austin also confirms that the Lewis thing is a real quote. He’s got it. So perfect. Actually, maybe share a little bit of that.
Anna:
Oh, my journey? I know it’s really funny to say find a perfect Catholic wife. My husband was like, “You weren’t Catholic when we got married.”
Joe:
Make the perfect-
Anna:
Yeah, you just create, speaking of change, convert her, which actually I will. I do have a good friend who her husband, they were dating and her husband decided he wanted to being Catholic and she was like, “Okay.” And they did convert together and he totally took the lead, which is awesome. So I do think men actually have a little more flexibility in that particular realm. If a woman is really pursuing Christ, I know multiple people where the woman converted to Catholicism and are devout Catholics, but as long as they already love
Joe:
Christ. I know a lot of on the other … I mean, I’ve got a lot of Patreon donors over at shamelessjo.com where it’s the husband is Catholic and the wife is not currently.
Anna:
Oh, really?
Joe:
And I would say this, in that process, a lot of wives want to see the thing lived out well
Anna:
More
Joe:
Than they want a convincing kind of argument for it.
Anna:
That’s true.
Joe:
Okay.
Anna:
Oh, our conversion story. Okay. Oh, see, my wife and I converted each other. See? So we got married. I was 21, he was 23. He started medical school. We became really disenchanted with the Protestant church. I just felt stuck. It was like, I’m at the end of Christianity. There’s nothing else here. I know what they’re going to say. I can get up and say it myself on a Sunday morning. And so we went to an Anglican church and we both really liked that. And so we stayed there for a while. And then I, so when he was in a fellowship, it was a really rigorous training program and he was working long hours. I started reading the Church Fathers and just fell in love, was enchanted, really wanted to convert. And I remember I went to him and I said, “I don’t think I want to be Protestant anymore.” And he was on the computer in the middle of doing something and he just looked at me and he’s like, “No, no, no.” It totally overwhelmed him.
He’s like, “We’re not doing this. Don’t even bring this up.” But knowing him, I knew him well enough. I said, “Okay, take your time, but you need to be able to tell me the doctrine that makes it impossible for you to convert.” So he went and bought a Catholic catechism and just sat down and started reading like, “I will find the error in this book.” And then we converted together. It was a real miracle, actually. It was an incredible gift of God that we converted. But yeah, I never been more thankful for almost anything besides finding Andy and finding the Catholic church.
Joe:
Beautiful. And something, and as you were saying that, some people were jumping in on the conversion dating strategy
Anna:
And
Joe:
Giving some pushback saying, “Hey, my mom married my dad thinking he would change and he didn’t and he still hates religion. He’s an atheist.”
Anna:
There is
Joe:
A difference between marrying someone and being open to a relationship with someone who seems open to changing. I mean, I’ll let you answer this, but I think two things that immediately jump out for me are, number one, is this person set in their ways or are they open to your influence? And number two, what stage of the relationship are we at? Because they don’t have to have their act together right away, certainly, but you’re wanting to see different things when you begin dating than you’re wanting to see on your wedding day. And if you’ve still got a bunch of red flags, don’t get married.
Anna:
Oh yeah. And I would say don’t marry, don’t date, don’t even consider somebody who’s totally not a Christian at all. I was more thinking like if someone’s a really devout Protestant and you’re a devout Catholic, that’s likely something you can kind of edge on or you can at least explore in dating. Yes, if you’re married and if you are ready to get married and they are still like, “I am a thousand percent against becoming Catholic,” that might be a deal breaker. But if you’re just looking to join, kind of explore that relationship, I don’t think that should be a deal breaker as long as they actually are Christian and committed to Christ.
Joe:
Well said. Okay.
Anna:
No, do not date an atheist or marry one. That’s a terrible idea.
Joe:
Okay. So final thoughts in terms of how to get the perfect Catholic wife. It seems like one piece of your advice is maybe you don’t find her, you find someone who’s on her way to becoming the perfect Catholic wife.
Anna:
Yes, that’s very important. Be confident in yourself. Figure out, don’t expect yourself to be perfect either. You don’t have to be perfect. You don’t have to look like a celebrity. You don’t have to do all these things. You need to have a life plan. You need to be hardworking and you need to be realistic about who you are and who the people around you are. And I know it’s so hard. It’s hard to meet people right now, but be confident and then give her time and space to change. As long as you’re both committed to Christ, as long as you’re both interested in building the same type of life together, then all these things are going to grow and change. It takes time and relationships get richer and richer and more and more beautiful with time. If you want to be the little old couple who’s holding hands in the park and you’re 90, that took 50 years to get there.
So be- Probably more
Joe:
Than that.
Anna:
Well, of marriage, if you’re 90? Yeah,
Joe:
They probably didn’t get married in their 40s. Yeah,
Anna:
That’s probably true. 90 old
Joe:
People, a lot of them got married young.
Anna:
Well, but nowadays people are getting married in their 40s. Okay, sorry. So yeah, be gracious in the same way the scripture says, “Do want to others as you’d have them do and too. Be gracious in the same way you want women to be gracious to you. ” So if you’re like, “I’m sick of all these women online having high standards.” And then you see this reasonably attractive person, you’re like, “Eh, not good enough.”
Joe:
Yeah. Okay. Wonderful. This is, I think, excellent advice. By the way, I see Ferris’ in the chat. Ferris of How to Be Christian. Shoot me an email. You’re going to be on the show in a little while. You didn’t know that until just now. We’ll do one of these. Thank you so much.
Anna:
Oh yes, this is so fun.
Joe:
Thank you for having me. Such a joy to be here. Did you guys want
Mike:
To look at any other the starred viewer comments? There’s a handful in there I think might be good.
Joe:
Okay. Last handful of questions. Chris has been married three years, one kid with one on the way. I can offer don’t be a weirdo, but don’t be a normie. Exercise at least a little and find a girl who loves Zelda.
Anna:
Yeah. My husband loves Zelda. I don’t love Zelda, but we had a child who loves Zelda.
Mike:
Can your
Anna:
Husband and I get married? You can breed a friend in our- It’s a
Joe:
Dominant trade, I think. I mean, you guys do love D&D together.
Anna:
So that is- We do play D&D. Yes. We’re very nerdy.
Joe:
Next level. I mean, it seems to me like real life Zelda.
Anna:
Yeah, basically. I am. Yeah. Yeah, we can go with that. RealLife Zelda.
Joe:
I’ve never played … I mean, I was raised in a house that said D&D is demonic.
Anna:
We were too. We had to admit to each other that we were D&D curious. We were both told it was demonic. And one day it came up. We saw people LARPing in a park and we’re like, “Would you ever LARP?” We don’t LARP, but not to say we wouldn’t.
Joe:
You’re
Anna:
LARP
Joe:
Adjacent. All right.
Anna:
Okay. The issue I’ve seen from my friends and brother and meeting people to date, and most of my friends who are married mean in college. Once college was over, most people cannot … Yeah, that
Joe:
Is really hard. Yeah, no, this is a real thing. I mean, the people saying, “You guys are out of touch, you’re too old for this, et cetera.” I understand completely. The demographics of dating have changed dramatically. And one of the things that makes us difficult is you do have to find yourself in a situation where you are more likely to meet people your own age in real life. Now, I don’t think there’s any shame in using Catholic match or anything like that as long as … Obviously, moral principles still apply, be chased about it, don’t objectify people and so on and don’t let that give you analysis paralysis. But I also think that there’s a need for going to events. If you are someone who wants to get married and there are parish events that you know young people will be at or diocesan events here in Kansas City, shout out to City on a Hill.
They have young adult sports leagues and adoration and pizza and beer and all this stuff. They have all these events that are set up for people in their post-college to marriage period of life to meet each other and form good friendships and discern marriage together and all this. And it’s beautiful. I mean,
It’s a great way to form connection.
Anna:
Well, so go places. Don’t necessarily just say you’re parish. This kind of goes into same with the second one. Any advice for meeting people in a parish community that’s basically nonexistent. Look around, explore. Actually, I met my husband at church one night and he showed up one time and got my number and he came to a young adults group and ask people for their phone number. Put yourself out there because you’re going to get rejected a bunch of times, but you only need one winner, so it’s okay. Hang in there.
Joe:
Yeah.
Anna:
Words Michael Scott, you miss
Joe:
100% of the shots you don’t take.
Anna:
Exactly. I’m going through OCIA in a rural area, basically lost my whole community and there are no young adult people at my parish. Oh, that’s really hard. I’m sorry. If you choose to convert, sometimes you do. It is a costly process. The encouragement I’d give you is God is going to take care of you. I know that’s really hard to hear, but the conversion process, the losses you go through in that people get angry, people … We had a lot of issues when we converted and we did have some friends we lost, but it is worth the cost. It is absolutely worth the cost. So I would say focus on the journey you’re on and ask God to provide a wife. And yeah, I mean, what you’re doing converting is more important. It’s the most important. It’s your eternal soul. God’s going to take care of you.
I promise you won’t regret it.
Joe:
Yeah. I mean, I would maybe add to that. I don’t know what your prior religious background was, Randy, but if there are people that you knew and respected and loved, and you don’t have to cut them, maybe they’re cutting you off because of you are becoming Catholic, but if there’s people who are devoted followers of Jesus Christ and they’re open to you as you become Catholic, it’s possible that you can have kind of a ripple effect. It’s not unheard of that one person converts and then they become so on fire for Christ in this new and deeper way that this creates kind of like you might be the person who is meant to help create a young adult presence at your rural parish, but I don’t want to promise something I can’t, but maybe take seriously that this might be not just for your own vocation, but just for the good of the other people.
Anna:
Yeah. Have either of you helped facilitate relationship for someone younger in Single like playing matchmaker. Oh, I love playing matchmaker. My dream job is to just be a matchmaker. Okay. One of my best matches, I dated a guy very briefly, dumped him, said, “I think you should date my sister. I think you like her better than me and they’re married with three children, so you’re welcome.” Yes, I think matchmaking is a blast. I actually really want to throw a matchmaking event for City on a Hill. I think it’d be so fun.
Joe:
All right. We’re signing
Anna:
Up for all sorts of
Joe:
Things. Yeah. And then finally, Charlie says, “Hello. I’m fairly devout. Love my rosary. Try to pray Lodz investors. I kind of think that you might be more than fairly about if you’re doing all
Anna:
This. ” But also an oddball. I’m in a band, have long hair, got my ears pierced recently. Oh, yes, absolutely.
Mike:
This person sounds almost exactly like me. Can
Joe:
We put Mike on the screen to just be like, “Mike, is this your alt?”
Mike:
Yeah,
Anna:
Right. Okay. I think guys with long hair are super attractive. Joking to test, I’m constantly begging my husband to grow hair up. He
Joe:
Had long hair when I met him and
Anna:
Kind of
Joe:
Long hair.
Anna:
Oddball guys are the best because they’re interesting. You have to spend the rest of your life with this person. You do not want to be bored. If you can’t do fun things and be a little quirky and go out on a limb and try things, you’re going to be bored as hell for 50 years, sorry. So no, don’t be afraid of being an oddball. And Mike’s asking
Joe:
The dangers. Totally. Let me say something on the oddball thing as someone who might fit that description. You want to be confident. So being totally insecure about being weird or different is not good. On the other hand, there are people who go to the opposite extreme where, “Hey, I assume you want to hear all about the history of Constantinople.” And you’re like, “I’ve just met you. I don’t.” And so knowing that your particular interests may not automatically be the other persons, a good solution to that, I think. Have the confidence that you are comfortable in your own skin and then be genuinely interested in the other person. So one piece of advice we haven’t given yet, but that I think a lot of men would benefit from is we often approach dating as if we’re trying to do one of two things. One, be like, “Look at all of my skills and interesting features and random trivia facts and wouldn’t that be impressive?” And doing a little bit of peacocking there.
And that doesn’t … I mean, it depends. That often doesn’t go well. Or two, focusing on just how she is going to improve your life.
Anna:
And
Joe:
A third way to do this that I think is better is to invest in her as a person, show interest in her, find out, learn her in a certain way and ask good questions and be interested. And if she has any social skills, she’ll ask you for more about yourself, but don’t feel the need to kind of force that. You can just be curious, be interested. And people who are nerdy are really good at studying, study, but as a human being, listen to what she has to say and thus be a good listener. I think that’ll get you further than just being like, “But look at how much arcane trivia I have.
Anna:
” Yeah. Well, and you can set it up to like, if you ask her on a date, you can set up a date that’s going to show you in your best light. My husband brought me to a saltwater aquarium on one of our earliest states. He’s very passionate about saltwater fish. We have a giant aquarium now. So he kind of set it up where he was going to be in his element and I was impressed. He knew a ton of facts about the fish. It worked.
Joe:
Fish than
Mike:
Anyone. Can I quickly say the way in which you show that you have this knowledge is not to show that you have the knowledge, but to facilitate someone else in appreciating things more by giving them the knowledge.
Anna:
Yes. Yeah. That’s really good. Yes. It’s really important to remember that women are people and you’re getting to know the person.
Mike:
Since when. Since when Anna come.
Anna:
I know. It’s hard for men to remember this. And yeah, like I said earlier, your job is to help your wife get married and help that person get to heaven. So you need to know them well. You need to be building them up. You need to be treating them as better than yourself and vice versa. Obviously women have to do the same. What if I know about freshwater fish instead?
Joe:
There are other fish in the sea.
Anna:
Or the river.
Joe:
Yes.
Anna:
Maybe try going to a nature center. But I’m saying, being open about the things you’re good at and the stuff that unique that makes you unique is a really good thing because it makes you interesting and it makes you who you are.
Joe:
Yeah. The Vel Nevine said, “My husband is a nerd for math. Count yourselves lucky.” I don’t know if she meant the count to be a little bit of a wordplay, but notice he’s a math nerd who got married. Guys.
Anna:
Good job.
Joe:
I think almost definitionally, a lot of you watching this are theology nerds. And I’m just going to say it. I’m a little bit biased. Theology nerds, way cooler than math nerds. And if there’s hope for them, there’s hope for you.
Anna:
The allogy nerds can definitely get married. Although do try and have a really good job, not just a theology job.
Joe:
Hey, I’m not going to cuss on that. Contemplative knowledge is better than practical knowledge. All right. Thank you all so much. And thank you, Anna, for
Anna:
Being here. Oh yeah, this has been so fun.
Joe:
Be on the lookout. I believe in the near to midfuture, Anna is going to have a podcast of her own on everyday evangelization called The Everywoman. And I want to follow that as soon as I can. And thank you all for your questions and input and everything else. And if you’re interested in stuff like this, we can do more.
Anna:
Yes. Go forth, young men. You’re doing great. Hang in there.
Joe:
Exactly. All right.
Anna:
God bless you all.
Joe:
For Shims Popri, I’m Joe Heschmeyer. God bless you.