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Dear Catholic.com visitor: Summer is here, and you may be thinking about a well-deserved vacation, family get-togethers, BBQs with neighborhood friends. More than likely, making a donation to Catholic Answers is not on your radar right now. But this is exactly the time we most need your help. The “summer slowdown” in donations is upon us, but the work of spreading the gospel and explaining and defending the Faith never takes a break. Your gift today will change lives and save souls for Christ this summer! The reward is eternal. Thank you and God bless.

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The Power of Sacramental Marriage

The Sacrament of Marriage is filled with power for growth toward intimacy with God. Dan and Stephanie Burke, from the Avila Institute, explain how they are helping couples access that power and thrive.


Cy Kellett:

Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers Podcast for living, understanding, and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host, and today we’re going to talk a bit about marriage. We have a wonderful couple here who we were just having a conversation over lunch and I thought, “Boy, this would make a perfect Focus episode.” And they said, “Okay, we’ll come in, and we’ll do a Focus episode with you.” Dan and Stephanie Burke from the Avila Institute. Thank you both for being here.

Dan Burke:

Great to be with you.

Stephanie Burke:

Thank you.

Cy Kellett:

But not just the Avila Institute. The other side of what you do is called?

Dan Burke:

Apostoli Viae.

Cy Kellett:

And that is what?

Dan Burke:

It’s a private association the faithful that helps people to live the contemplative life.

Cy Kellett:

But you also do marriage retreats.

Dan Burke:

Yes, we do.

Cy Kellett:

This is something you’ve begun to do.

Stephanie Burke:

We do. It’s part of Divine Intimacy Radio, which is bought broadcast through EWTN. And so as an extension of that, we do divine intimacy in marriage retreats.

Cy Kellett:

You’ve both said extraordinary things. And so I would just like you to repeat everything you said at lunch, please. Okay, and go.

Dan Burke:

We’ll remember it, I’m sure.

Cy Kellett:

No, it was a delightful to hear you talking about it because one of the things that I wonder if the church is even answering for people is what are we doing in marriage? What are we doing?

Dan Burke:

What is the sacrament? Most people don’t understand that.

Cy Kellett:

What is this? What’s this for? does it to make you happy? Is it for fun? Is it for… What’s the point of it?

Stephanie Burke:

What’s the purpose of getting married, yeah?

Cy Kellett:

And what I was taking from it was that the purpose of our life is union with God and marriage is part of this journey of pilgrimage back to the house of the Father.

Dan Burke:

Yeah, exactly. I mean the whole event or the whole retreat is built on this one question and that is, how do I come to union? And a subset of that question, is it’s with God because that solves all problems. I mean, in its temporal sense, it has… There’s limitations and then union with one another. When we get the union with God right first, and both of us are on that same path, we’re running up each side of the triangle, which means we’re automatically running toward one another as we’re running toward God. The entire retreat is based on that fundamental idea.

Stephanie Burke:

That’s right.

Cy Kellett:

And how long are these retreats that you do with married couples?

Stephanie Burke:

They come in on a Friday morning, and so we began about 10:00 AM on a Friday. And then we end with Mass and lunch on Sunday. So it’s not too long but it does require a little bit of commitment to get away. We purposefully don’t make them online. We do them only in person because we as a couple, you really need to get away. You need to invest that time with one another and get grandma, your aunt, to take care of the children or whatever, wherever you are in your state of life and your marriage as it were and take that time away to Focus on one another.

Cy Kellett:

So my wife and I, our kids are grown; married, coming up on 30 years. Could we make this retreat?

Stephanie Burke:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. We have everything from engaged couples, brand new 20 year olds that are just aglow with the spark of life. We’ve had 80-year-old couples and everything in between. And we’ve had both those that are thriving and those that are struggling. It’s not a fix it.

Cy Kellett:

Well, that last point you made both striving and struggling, it does seem to me that if one has the goal in mind, everyone is aware that we’re approaching the goal. Nobody will go, “I don’t really need that retreat.”

Dan Burke:

We all need help.

Cy Kellett:

Union with God, that’s old hat for me.

Dan Burke:

[inaudible 00:03:52]

Cy Kellett:

None of us get there.

Dan Burke:

Nobody who is sound of mind thinks that.

Cy Kellett:

Exactly. So you said something during the conversation at lunch, and I wanted to ask you about this because we’re an apologetics apostolate. We’re apologetics. This is an apologetics podcast. So often what we find ourselves talking about is how to share the faith, how to defend the faith, that kind of thing. But you said most people are not aware of the power of a healthy marriage. And I was like, “Okay, wait a second,” because you talking said this in the context of Union with God, but also of evangelization and sharing the faith. And so what does that mean? And either of you take it. What is the power of a healthy marriage?

Dan Burke:

Well, it’s interesting. It’s the beginning of the retreat. We talk about how we were invited into exorcism ministry to support an exorcist. And we met with him. It was funny because it was on a really foggy night at a convent. It could have been right out of a movie. We didn’t know why exactly he was wanting to meet with us. And he said, “I want you to work with me in exorcism ministry.” And we’re just dumbfounded as to why. And he said, “Because of the power of your sacramental marriage will protect me as a priest in exorcism.’

Cy Kellett:

Really?

Stephanie Burke:

No kidding.

Dan Burke:

Shocked us, just like it’s shocking you.

Stephanie Burke:

We sat back, we thought, “Father, we don’t have any experience in this.” And he says, “You don’t understand. The power of your marriage will protect me as a priest.”

Cy Kellett:

Isn’t that something? I can’t imagine that I would be any use at a… But maybe my marriage would be useful without me. I might be running the other way. So there’s a spiritual power then.

Stephanie Burke:

Yes, absolutely.

Cy Kellett:

Because I guess what I’m trying to get at is what I was taking from you and what was exciting me from what you were saying as far as our apostolate was, we give people tools. Your marriage is a tool. It’s not just a tool. I don’t want to just make it an instrument, but it’s part of a life that explains, and defends, and shares the faith.

Stephanie Burke:

Oh, it’s much… Yes, all of those things, but it’s much more than that because when we become one in marriage, we actually become a new creation.

Cy Kellett:

Together.

Stephanie Burke:

It’s a new creation together in that oneness. And so the Lord’s grace flows differently through a healthy husband and wife in sacramental marriage.

Dan Burke:

Yeah. And the power of that, to your point, to witness… I mean, you’ve talked about this all the time, is that the enemy wants to destroy marriage because if he can destroy marriage, he can destroy one of the most important images of God and love between the persons of the Trinity when you-

Stephanie Burke:

Right, it mirrors the Trinity. But if you think about when you see a really healthy, happy couple together and they’re bringing forth life, and they’re expecting or they’re holding a child, does that not draw your heart to worship?

Cy Kellett:

It does indeed, definitely.

Stephanie Burke:

It is so beautiful and it helps you believe in God. That’s why the devil hates marriage so much because it’s a representation.

Dan Burke:

It’s a window.

Stephanie Burke:

It’s a window into the love of the Trinity, this self-giving love that you just pour yourself out for the other. And I talk about a lot. We spent as a husband and wife, we pour ourselves out for one another. And so there’s no lack of getting your needs met if you’re Focused on loving the other to God, right?

Cy Kellett:

Yes. So you talk about divine intimacy. There’s a certain way in which we can go about being holy that’s more of a performance of holiness than holiness. You both in this conversation… And I think everything that I will ask you is inspired by what I just heard you saying at lunch, because I was sitting at lunch thinking, “I wish everyone could hear this conversation,” but I don’t know if you know this, but you use the word broken an awful lot. Why do you use the word broken so much when you talk about the power of intimacy in marriage?

Stephanie Burke:

Where to start? Well, I think in part is we were both broken. We’re the Brady Bunch. We came from brokenness, so we experienced that ourselves, and then we experienced the power of God’s grace to restore us and renew us and to make us new which birthed our entire ministry. We never dreamed any of what we do would be possible. But then you look out into the world and the intimacy of marriage has been broken.

Cy Kellett:

It has, right.

Stephanie Burke:

People don’t understand the power of their marriage. They don’t understand how when they become who God intends them to be, it will transform them, and it will change the world around them. It transforms them and it changes the world around them. And it’s a powerful instrument of grace in the world. A holy marriage will transform the world.

Cy Kellett:

The barriers to that are enormous.

Stephanie Burke:

Huge.

Cy Kellett:

And I always tell people the best advice I ever got when I got this job at Catholic Answers was a woman who works in Catholic radio, Debbie Georgianni told me don’t be a phony about your own struggles in your life. So you’re not doing anybody any good if you go on the air and you act like… So I have spoken a great deal about one of the best things I ever heard somebody said about marriage was sometimes you have a bad decade. And my wife and I had a really bad decade and a half really bad, where it doesn’t… This transforming thing did happen, but it doesn’t mean I don’t regret that. I’m so sorry for the hurts that I did much more than I’m offended by the hurts that were done. It seems to have gotten transformed. But I really think that it’s, at least from my experience, it’s possible to become hopeless in marriage.

Stephanie Burke:

Yes.

Cy Kellett:

And that you really don’t think that holiness that joy that you’re talking about is for you.

Dan Burke:

Or is possible.

Cy Kellett:

That you missed it. Whatever the decisions were before, this is the wrong person. This is the wrong circumstance. I’ve done the wrong things.

Dan Burke:

You’re too much of a mess.

Cy Kellett:

It’s gone.

Stephanie Burke:

Well, and I remember growing up and looking at all the marriages around me in my family, my dad, multiple marriages, other family members, and thinking that… and there was only one couple that I knew, an aunt and uncle that had a truly oneness in their marriage. And I just assumed that that was for everybody, that they were the lucky ones that most of us had to just sweat it out, and bear with it, or get a divorce or whatever it was. And I just didn’t think it was for me. And I’ll tell you, after the brokenness of my past life and the annulment and everything, and I gave my life over to the Lord and I said, “Take over my life and I will do whatever you ask of me. I don’t want to go back.”

I had truly gone to the pigs. I was a prodigal daughter. And when I came back and the Lord gave me Dan, I just wanted to give everything to the Lord, I actually prayed and I said, “Lord, love Dan through me. Love him through me. Help him to understand how much you love him through me,” because he was such a profound blessing in my life. And if we can see our marriages through the eyes of gratitude, rather than allow the enemy to destroy it from within it is completely transformative.

Dan Burke:

But just for some clarity, she says, what a blessing I was. I was also part of why she’s going to spend much less time in purgatory as well.

Cy Kellett:

Sure, and I identify with that.

Dan Burke:

There are both sides of that coin when we got together. Because we were both, as you noted, we were both very broken, both very aware of who God was, who we are, why we exist, and realizing that nothing matters more than him. That fundamental reality is really what saw us through all of the difficulties and helped us to learn so much of what we now try to help others and serve others too. But without that deep brokenness, of course, it’s very hard to understand. It’s very hard to set aside everything else in life that’s so tempting that we think is important. Even Catholic ministry like we both do, we can think that’s why we exist, but it really is… It’s ancillary to the essence of our being and why we exist. We exist to worship God, period. We exist to bring others to worship him. Those two things occupy the primary purpose for the entirety of our lives. And then we live it out in apostolate labor.

But in marriage, we often don’t understand the power of living that reality out in marriage. I want to go back to something you said about hope, which I think is one of the most important things that we give. The reason we talk about brokenness very openly, and I really appreciate your approach as well, is so that people will have hope. Because if they think we’re talking down to them or they might look at us and Chris, who’s president of Catholic Answers, I know your listeners know that, said to us how moved he was. We were sitting so closely together as he came in in adoration.

So being open to that witness has to come through the recognition that we’re not lucky. We’ve worked really, really hard with the help of God to get where we are, but we’re not lucky. We’re not perfect. We’re broken, redeemed, and following him, and he’s showing us Stephanie as wife, Dan, as husband, what it means to be a follower of his. As we transform more fully into who he is in our unique roles and calling, then that draws us to be able to love one another more fully and purely.

Stephanie Burke:

The Lord really does make all things new. And I think people have forgotten that. They’ve gotten lost in that… They’ve forgotten that truth and the thing is, is he can do that in the most broken of circumstances.

Dan Burke:

The worst; it doesn’t matter how bad it is.

Stephanie Burke:

The worst. We have seen marriages on all different type of level and brokenness that have been completely transformed through the grace of God and cooperating with that grace and really persevering and saying, “No matter what, I’m not leaving. No matter what, I’m going to surrender to the Lord and cooperate with this grace and love you the way I was supposed to from the very beginning.”

Dan Burke:

And also to fight sin and selfishness, that sort of thing. Just to give a couple of examples, in our last retreat, we had one woman, Stephanie could tell the story better, but basically said, I’ve committed… I’m going to leave the separate bedroom and go back to my… Or the couch or whatever it was, and go back.

Stephanie Burke:

Yeah. She said, “I’m going to move out of the guest room, and I’m going to go back into the marital suite with my husband.”

Dan Burke:

And another one said, “I was going to divorce my husband before I came to this retreat, and I’m not going to anymore.” And in fact, what’s fascinating about this one, she for the first time in her life felt loved in Catholic community at the retreat and is more deeply embracing her faith because of it. So we’ve seen couples who had not been shared marital intimacy for decades, restoring marital intimacy, but it’s all about telling the truth, which is what you guys exist for. Catholic Answers is about telling the truth in a way that people can experience it at a heart level and have some hope that they could live out that truth. So it’s not too far beyond them.

Cy Kellett:

And that’s that state of life that you can get into where I suppose that the way that hopelessness has become almost a curtain that’s over you. When you think of it the way that you are describing it, when I think of it the way that you’re describing it, the sense of wasted time and having blown it, even now, I feel like I wish I could say to that person those years ago, “It’s actually not wasted time. You’re doing what you’re supposed to be doing; just stay and keep doing it.” Because it’s almost like there’s a fuse. Let the fuse keep burning because when the explosion of love happens, you’re going to be worth having lived through the long fuse.

Stephanie Burke:

Well, I think one of the really important things is when people think about suffering and think about the mistakes they’ve made, they assume that God was absent in that, and the thing is, that’s not true. The Lord’s never left us. And when we suffer, when we’ve sinned, when we’ve become broken… Like I said, I went to the pigs. In that, he was purifying me. He was sanctifying me. He was making me. He wanted me to become selfless, not to get out of my selfishness. And so all those mistakes we’ve made all that brokenness, instead of seeing it with regret, we need to praise the Lord. Because without it, we would’ve stayed in our brokenness.

And in that suffering, he brings us to the reality of “I’m making you new. You don’t understand what I’m doing right now. You don’t understand why you’re on your face in front of the tabernacle begging me to turn your life around. But if I had not allowed you to suffer all the things you’ve suffered, you wouldn’t be here right now.”

Dan Burke:

You would’ve never listened.

Cy Kellett:

Oh, that’s so true.

Stephanie Burke:

And then when we say, “Lord, help me,” he meets us in that and then pours grace into all those places, those woundedness, those places of woundedness, and it makes us stronger. It makes us stronger and then more selfless to where then we can actually love. Because I can look at any marriage out there. I can look, talk to any woman in her brokenness or any couple in their brokenness, and I can find a thread of my own history, my own brokenness there, and it makes me just love them all the more. And I have this intense desire to help them be healed because I know what the Lord can do.

Cy Kellett:

You also moved on in our conversation at lunch to the discernment of spirits. And you used the image, Stephanie, of the devil, standing between the husband and the wife wanting to either block or break that bond between them. It sounded awfully familiar when you said it, but I realize I have never reflected on it in the way that you were speaking of it. So would you say something about what you mean about the discernment of spirits in marriage and why that’s a skill that you believe people should have?

Stephanie Burke:

When we wrote the marriage retreat, by the way, that we didn’t base on any other marriage retreat, it was truly a fruit of prayer and our own history. When we were done with it, I said, “Dan, we can’t leave people here because they’ll get turned around, but they don’t have this other tool of discernment of spirits in marriage.” And so we have an extension of that. And the reason that that is so important is that the devil hates your marriage. Let’s just be completely clear about it. He hates marriage because it’s that mirror of the Trinity. And so he spends all of his time trying to distort what I hear coming from my husband. And so because of my own woundedness and the enemy knows it, he can manipulate me. And so then my husband says something and I hear something completely different that’s based on my woundedness.

But if I’m not practicing discernment of spirits, if I don’t understand that the enemy is trying to destroy my marriage and is manipulating what’s what’s coming out of my husband, then I can actually just end up being very reactive, broken, withdrawing, moving into the guest bedroom, like that one woman, and vice versa. So the enemy is constantly at work in our own lives as individuals, whether we’re married or not. That’s why discernment of spirits is so powerful. We need to understand that our battleground is right here in the mind. We must take all thoughts captive as St. Paul told us, and then he works twice as hard in the marriage because the marriage will bear fruit.

Remember I told you, if a couple comes together in oneness, they will change and the world will change around them in extraordinary ways. Think about their children, their grandchildren. I mean, I believe that I’m standing in what I do right now based on the rosary of my grandmother and my grandpa.

Cy Kellett:

Oh, amen.

Stephanie Burke:

In their chapel, right?

Cy Kellett:

Right.

Stephanie Burke:

The power of their prayer brought about the fruit of my conversion. I have no doubt of that. So if that’s the reality of it, the enemy’s just going to work overtime to make sure that everything that my husband says, what he does, a slight gesture is going to ping my woundedness or my brokenness or some memory I have or whatever it is, and I’m going to say, “Oh, he’s not listening to me. He’s dismissive of me.” Or I just start to break down in desolation and woundedness and pull away from my husband.

I have this memory of really having a moment in prayer that really broke me, and it caused me in that moment I could have withdrawn and pulled away. I actually had the temptation, not from the prayer, but from an experience of miscommunication between my husband and I. I had the temptation to leave, to put my kids back in the car, put the bags back in the car. And I heard, “You’ve made a mistake. I told you he wasn’t going to listen to you. This is just going to be like everybody else,” or whatever.

In that moment, because I had some discernment going on, I thought, “This is not of God. This temptation is not of God.” And I resisted that urge. I resisted the enemy so that he would flee. I drew near to the Lord, and then I drew near to my husband. I went to him in my brokenness, in my tears, and he received me in that. He said, “What’s going on?” I was able to explain it to him, and we in calm, in peace, in love, took it apart, took apart where the enemy was working in it and brought great light into our marriage. It was a turning point.

Dan Burke:

It was a misunderstanding.

Stephanie Burke:

Right, it was a misunderstanding, and it was a turning point for us that was transformative in our marriage.

Cy Kellett:

But it does, I guess for some reason, it brought to mind Thomas Aquinas’s thing that grace builds on nature, but there’s also, I guess the demon preys on nature, so to speak. What could be a common misunderstanding is amplified by the whispering of an evil voice.

Dan Burke:

And by your wounds both.

Stephanie Burke:

Yes.

Cy Kellett:

And maybe aggravating those wounds.

Stephanie Burke:

Yes.

Dan Burke:

Yeah, and that’s exactly right. And when we talk about discernment of spirits, we’re not talking about something esoteric. We’re talking about Ignatian, the practice of Ignatian discernment of spirit. Just following-

Stephanie Burke:

The 14 rules.

Dan Burke:

… the 14 rules, first set of 14 rules. And so we practice them daily and then teach husbands and wife to do it. Because one of the things we impress on them through the retreat is some of the thoughts in your head are not yours, and you shouldn’t listen to them. And some of the feelings that you have about your spouse are not from your spouse, but from the enemy, and you shouldn’t listen to those feelings. But teaching people how to think about their thinking and stand outside of themselves, which of course, we have the capacity to do, which in some sense makes us evidence of why we’re created by God and different from all the other in quote “animals,” is the ability to think about our thinking. We teach people to think about their thinking to become aware.

A great example when exorcist gives, which is funny, is a wife decides she wants to bring breakfast in bed to her husband to love him. And so she peeks in realizes he’s awake, and says, “Honey, what time are you getting up?” What does he hear? “You lazy pig. Why are you still in bed?” So he gets mad at her and at the worst possible time because she is at that moment so vulnerable-

Cy Kellett:

Trying to love him.

Dan Burke:

… trying to love him, and he creates this huge wound and that creates a huge fight. The enemy does that sort of thing all the time in marriages. When we learn to recognize it, and then we learn how to fight it, which there are unique and very powerful ways to do so, which is in the realm of spiritual warfare, people can make huge strides.

Cy Kellett:

Wonderful. Speaking to Dr. Ray Guarendi right here, just a month ago, he said, “One of the things you have to learn about forgiveness is that most of the things you think you have to forgive, you don’t really have to forgive,” and that would be an example of that, that the wife didn’t say anything wrong. Someone else introduced that. So it’s not a matter of forgiveness, it’s a matter of understanding what’s happening in that moment.

Dan Burke:

What’s really happening.

Cy Kellett:

What’s really happening, right.

Stephanie Burke:

And that the enemy actually can put thoughts in your head.

Dan Burke:

A lot of people don’t know that.

Stephanie Burke:

Most Catholics, I don’t think understand that and know that. They can’t read your mind, but they can place ideas into your mind, thoughts into your mind. They also know your history.

Dan Burke:

They know your memory.

Stephanie Burke:

They know all your woundedness.

Dan Burke:

They have access to your memory.

Stephanie Burke:

They have access to your memory. They know every time that you were hurt, and betrayed, and rejected, and all of those things, so they play on that. I mean, I tell people, they look at your behaviors and they go, “Hold my beer, watch this.” And they go do something and watch you react and you fall apart thinking “I’m my brokenness,” or “My husband is his sin,” or vice versa. You are not your sin. You are not your brokenness. You’re a beloved daughter or son of the king. You just need to know where the battle’s really going on and go after that and be holy, and do it together, and your life will be transformed.

Cy Kellett:

Amen. Amen.

Dan Burke:

We mentioned this retreat is not based on psychology or other retreats that we’ve seen. It’s based on scripture and based on Catholic mystical tradition.

Stephanie Burke:

And our own-

Dan Burke:

In our own lives, we’re not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers. St. Paul says that we have divine power in Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, to destroy strongholds. What are those strongholds? He says, “We need to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.” So we need to be aware of the thoughts that are likely from the enemy or our brokenness or that exacerbate our brokenness, and we need to channel Saint Theodorus, the great 9th century mystic in the Christian East said, “We need to chastise them. We need to beat the snot out of them with hostility.” And those thoughts that are of God are godliness, which also is echo of St. Paul. Whatever is good, whatever is beautiful, whatever is noble, think on these things. We need to cherish the good thoughts and chastise the bad ones. But in order to do that, we have to be aware.

And so a big part of the retreat, a big part of the experience is getting people to realize that for the first time and go, “Oh, wow. The person across, the person on the other side of the bed from me is maybe not the monster I thought they were. Maybe the monster is outside of both of us.”

Cy Kellett:

Wonderful. I’m so grateful for this conversation. It’s just so helpful because it really is, well, for one thing, I guess two reasons it feels so important to me. One is understanding what you said, Stephanie, about the power of marriage, not just for the couple, not just as a therapeutic undertaking, but some other, it’s enormously-

Dan Burke:

Divine purpose.

Cy Kellett:

The power of marriage so then it gives you a warrior spirit for marriage.

Dan Burke:

Yes, it should.

Cy Kellett:

I really want to do this because if it’s got that kind of power, then it’s not a waste of my time. It’s not just a mistake I made. I want to do this. I want to fight this.

Dan Burke:

It’s not just making a roommate situation better.

Cy Kellett:

Right, no, right. There’s something far, far more here.

Stephanie Burke:

It is supernatural.

Cy Kellett:

And then the other side of it that I’m getting from the two of you and I’m just letting you know what I got in case you wanted to add anything. But the other side of it is there’s hope, there’s great help. If you take up that warrior spirit, there’s infinite help for you in it. It can be healed, it can be fixed, it can be restored.

Dan Burke:

Amen.

Stephanie Burke:

Absolutely. We’ve seen it time and time again.

Cy Kellett:

I’m just so grateful to have this conversation. I was so grateful to get to listen to you at lunch, and I’d listened a million times. It’s just wonderful to hear the two of you talk about your marriage, and I think you may have the kind of intellectual preparation that allows you to speak of it in a way that many other people can’t, but anybody who has experienced Christian marriage will identify what you’ve said.

Dan Burke:

No doubt.

Stephanie Burke:

That’s right.

Dan Burke:

It doesn’t matter where they’re coming from.

Cy Kellett:

Stephanie, thank you very much.

Stephanie Burke:

Thank you.

Cy Kellett:

Dan, thank you very much.

Stephanie Burke:

It’s been a delight.

Cy Kellett:

Stephanie and Dan Burke have been our guests. Where can people find you? You want to give a website or anything?

Dan Burke:

Best place to find everything we do, the portal through which you can find Divine Intimacy in Marriage, Divine Intimacy Radio, Avila Institute is spiritualdirection.com.

Cy Kellett:

All right, spiritualdirection.com. That does it for us. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. Thank you for being here with us. As always, if you want to communicate with us, you can send us an email, focus@catholic.com is our email address focus@catholic.com. It costs a few dollars to do this, so if you want to support us financially, I see Chris’ check over there. Please make it a large check. You can do that at givecatholic.com and that does it for us. We’ll see you next time, God willing, right here on Catholic Answers Focus.

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