Father Mark Mary Ames joins us for a conversation about the centrality of God’s Fatherhood to the Christian message. The author of The Father: 30 Meditations to Draw You Into the Heart of God, offers insights for sharing God’s Fatherhood with others, even those who struggle with father imagery.
Cy Kellett:
Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding and defending your Catholic faith. I am Cy Kellett, your host, and today we talk about God the Father, and about, well, first of all, coming closer to God the Father, but also about opportunities with evangelization and apologetics, explaining and defending and sharing the faith of sharing the love of the Father, but also obstacles that come from people’s, perhaps their relationship with the Father or media depictions of fatherhood. And so these kinds of messing up our image of God. Our guest is Father Mark-Mary Ames. He’s with the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal and he has a new book called The Father: 30 Meditations to Draw You into the Heart of God. Available now from Ascension Press. Father Ames, thank you very much for being here with us.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
Hey, Cy, good to be with you. Thanks for having me.
Cy Kellett:
Did I get it all right, Franciscan Friars of the Renewal?
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
You nailed it. Yep.
Cy Kellett:
I nailed it.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
You did.
Cy Kellett:
I appreciate the affirmation. First of all, having a triune God, there’s always going to be for each of us, an emphasis on one member of the Trinity or another, and maybe in history over time there’s an emphasis on one over the other. This doesn’t seem to be the Father’s time.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
What makes you say that?
Cy Kellett:
Well, I mean I think that we’re very much, especially because of evangelical Protestantism, we’re very much about Jesus and often Jesus to the exclusion of any other consideration. All the talk is Jesus talk, and there’s very little talk about the Father and the Spirit. And even among evangelicals, whether within or outside the Catholic Church, the Spirit will get a little better press than the Father will.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
And that’s interesting. I guess it’ll probably have to do with a little bit of who we run with because certainly… Actually my experience being with the Friars at this point is somewhat different in that within our own community, God as Father is something that we talk about and preach about a lot. So it’s actually for me, certainly on the rise. And one other thing which I think the listeners will also appreciate is in some sense liturgically, it’s always the season of the Father because we always write the liturgical prayers are to the Father in the Son through the Holy Spirit.
Cy Kellett:
I see what you’re saying.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
But I do totally resonate with what you’re sharing as well.
Cy Kellett:
Well, it’s also a time in which in weird ways both fatherhood and motherhood are denigrated. I mean, it would be hard to have a society in which mothers and fathers are made optional, and also motherhood and fatherhood are treated with the respect that God intended. You can’t have both of those things.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
And I guess also to prove your point a little bit, my experience in putting together a book on God the Father, a part of the motivation for it is also just reflecting that there’s not a lot of works out there with that particular emphasis. There are a good number that are on Jesus, actually a lot. There’s also a few on the Holy Spirit, but you don’t see a ton of books out there that are specifically geared towards understanding and studying God as Father.
Cy Kellett:
But Jesus himself talked a lot about God as Father.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
Yeah, absolutely. And when the disciples asked him to pray, what he gave us was the Our Father.
Cy Kellett:
And probably one of the most moving statements He makes in His… I think you just feel it viscerally when He says it, is when He’s telling the apostles, you have a Father in heaven who loves you, stop worrying about things. His way of saying stop worrying is you have a Father in heaven who loves you.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
Yeah, exactly. And what we’re kind of talking about here is the Sermon on the Mount and over and over again, Jesus in that context is making reference to the Father as the reason to trust, as the reason to go into your own room. And your father who sees in secret will reward you. This is where he gives us Our Father. It’s certainly at the heart, I would say, of Jesus’ mission and His preaching.
Cy Kellett:
So the way you constructed this book, however it suggests to me that you wanted us to have a better image of fatherhood in general in order to better appreciate the Father, God the Father, that by sharing images of other fathers, it almost seems like you’re doing repair work on our image of the Father in heaven.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
I do think that might be, and hopefully that is part of the fruit of the book called The Father. Particularly my hope is that what is communicated is the reality, is the truth that the good father that you desire, you in fact have in God. So you get these desires again for God, for a father who is loving, who is patient, who pursues us, who instructs us, who teaches us, who fights for us, who is secure and trustworthy, that we have these, I would say God-given desires because we also have the fulfillment of these in God. But what we can’t do is just bypass and skip the reality of how deep the father wound is for many people, which is why I do actually… I start with the story of Saint Francis because I think there’s a very romantic story of Francis where he is before the bishop and he strips himself of all of his clothes and say, now I have no father in heaven except for my heavenly Father and begins to pray Our Father.
But for a human being, what’s happening there is Saint Francis’ dad is going to publicly disown him and to cut him off. And that’s the context of that scene. And so I really believe that that had to affect Saint Francis and that part of the reason he so totally followed the Lord and so totally followed Jesus was because he knew that Jesus reveals and brings us to God the Father. So I do think we can’t just skip by that. But also I think that in many of the saints, particularly Saint Francis, we have an example of someone who had a very, very difficult biological father situation, but was able to find healing and fulfillment in his pursuit of Christ and ultimately who brings him to the Father.
Cy Kellett:
So maybe that’s part of what we’re offering in the evangelizing that we do is inviting… And maybe this is something that we’re missing in our evangelizing and in our kind of trying to share the faith with others is the part of the joy of the faith is coming to know the love of the Father.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
Absolutely, and I do think certainly in evangelization our preaching in our words and our teaching and our educating and our entering discussion are really important. Also important is making tangible, making real God’s love, His care, His fatherhood, His presence, His stability. I do think myself as a spiritual father, as a priest, I do think that’s one of my favorite parts of the priesthood is just being a spiritual father, just being there, being trustworthy, being stable in the name of Jesus, in the name of God, and that people do come to have a deeper healing experience of the fatherhood of God. And it’s very, very, very good news that you have a father who is good. It’s very, very good news.
Cy Kellett:
[inaudible 00:08:03] you said give a tangible experience about that. So what’s our opportunity there as Christians to help others experience not just to tell? I mean telling is important. I don’t ever denigrate the act of telling, but you said give a tangible experience of the fatherhood of God.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
And I think as far as the communication of this, the book has 30 different chapters, and part of the reason for that is there’s 30 different sort of characteristics of God to focus on. In our evangelization and our proclaiming this truth means we want… It’s the fullness and so involves all of those. But for the sake of our conversation, one of the things that comes to mind that I’ve experienced in my own life is just being there as a stable, consistent presence for those who are really, really suffering. And it’s something that in my sort of priesthood I do with some consistency. I just meet with people on a regular basis. And it’s nothing fancy and it’s nothing extraordinary, but just being there and being that sort of icon and that experience of God that He is there, that He sees them, that He’s with them again, has borne tremendous fruit in the people’s lives I’ve had a chance to walk with.
Cy Kellett:
It’s funny that you use the word stable so much when you talk about fatherhood and the Father, maybe I’ll just pause there and ask you about that, about why is that feature of fatherhood, why do you emphasize it so much?
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
I guess I do a good amount of work with young-ish people. So that would be, I would call it mid to late 20s and below to late college. And I think there’s so much inconsistent in their life, and there’s… Particularly just if there are some pretty core wounds at home and we need something stable to build our lives on, we need something sure, we need something that we know is always going to be there for us. And ultimately that is God. God is our rock, He is our shelter, He is our home. This is a God-given if you will desire, and even sort of a human need. And so I do think just when someone is in sort of a chaotic life and even their own lives, their own sort of interiors can be quite chaotic. Some place of stability, of respite, of security, of consistency is profoundly helpful and even necessary for some of those initial stages of healing and growth.
Cy Kellett:
And how do you deal with people who you may encounter for whom the fatherhood of God is an obstacle? That is they just… I mean, one way that I’ve seen that and probably experienced it in my own life is not being able to accept God as Father, having trouble accepting fatherly love. But another way that you see it is not being able to… The person who doesn’t… The idea of God as Father is almost ideologically problematic for them, that they have a strong animus towards patriarchy or all of that, which is kind of a very late modern stance that many people have internalized because they were taught in school or through the media. So if I could take those two with you, first of all, the person who is a Christian or is a follower of Jesus who still is having trouble accepting God as Father, who still maybe struggles with the scolding God, can we start with that one? How might you deal with that person?
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
And I think we just have to… I think it’s important to, if you will, reverence it and affirm that people’s life experiences have real effects and they have real effects on our ability to see God and particularly in this space of His fatherhood. And one of the stories I do share is of a young woman who very early on in her life, her mother says to her, never expect anything from a man. And her own dad ended up confirming this through a lot of just not being a good man at all. And years later, when she would have a conversion, for the first years she found it very, very difficult to pray to God as Father or Jesus because of the sort of masculine wound and baggage. And so she would only pray through Mary. But over time the healing would happen and she could… Mary did lead her to Jesus. Mary did bring her the healing, to bring her to Jesus and God the Father.
And so I do think there’s a part of the genius of the Lord giving us a share in his mother as well. And if at this point in your life, for reasons the masculine or the father is too harmful or too hurtful because of your life experience, I do think we can continue to go to our lady and she will sort of love us into the life we need. So I think it’s fair for us to be on a journey. At the same time, you can’t just dismiss it and say it’s not for you. As far as we have to sort of be on the journey that… There’s no getting around the fact that Jesus reveals to us God as Father, that this is the language He uses, that this is who He reveals Him to be. And so we do want to get there eventually.
Cy Kellett:
Well, there’s this other side of it too, for the person who wants to, many of our listeners to this podcast are people who want to make an act defense of the Catholic faith. They want to share the Catholic faith with other people and help remove obstacles to their embrace of the Catholic faith. And in my own experience, when I have been anxious about the Father’s love or when I have known other people who are evangelists or apologists who are anxious about the Father’s love, we’re not as good at it. You end up kind of worrying that this other… You’re trying to get them not to be offensive to God rather than trying to get them to the love of God, into the love of God. Do you see the distinction that I’m making there?
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
If I’m hearing it right, there can be a felt tension between, if you will, the teaching potential like judgment of God and the compassionate mercy of God, is that what I’m hearing?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, and you can get so caught up into the wanting other people to think right or get right with God, that you forget to share that loving compassionate Father.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
And that’s why we need the fullness of the gospel to always be before us, the fullness of the gospel. And Jesus reveals to us that there is a judgment. Like Matthew 25 with the… It’s just very clear, over and over again there is a judgment. At the same time Jesus as well goes and He does eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners, He goes and meets them. And so He does give… And I think it’s the art of it is we need to give the fullness of Christ and the fullness of God and the fullness of the truth, which both has moral implications and moral demands and also has demands of charity and mercy and compassion, etc. We need to proclaim the fullness of the entirety of the gospel. And I do think it’s a work of the devil to divide and to separate and to try, for example, pit God’s justice versus His mercy or His truth versus His compassion against each other. We really have to actively fight against that in ourselves as well.
Cy Kellett:
So then what about the person who has in a certain sense been catechized against fatherhood by school or culture? There is a kind of… I mean, there’s the Homer Simpson syndrome that we all know about, that media has a tendency to portray fathers as buffoons, as the member of the family who just doesn’t get it like everybody else gets it or as problematic because the father represents the moral judgment on the other members of the families. But then we have in academia or in many people’s schooling, this is not hidden. This is an active part of their education is a kind of anti-fatherhood that almost like western culture is presented to them as problematic because it’s so male dominated and father-like, trying to impose itself on what would otherwise be the peaceful people of the Earth. How do we talk about the father in such a context that in a way that will be helpful to other people?
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
Yeah, what comes to mind is this, is the CFRs as Franciscans, we kind of use the language of a pilgrimage as our spirituality. And it’s this idea that we’re on this pilgrimage, we’re on a journey which involves ongoing growth. Father Benedict Groeschel, one of our founders, he used to often talk about we’re just trying to make the next best step. And that’s kind of like the approach. And so in our journey with people, what we’re trying to help them do is to make the next best step on their own journey, particularly towards the fullness of holiness and sanctity and conformity to Christ. And so that’s the thing where it has to be kind of a particular medicine to the particular people. And so some of them need permission.
The biggest thing, if there’s a wound… We have to stay in relationship with God. And so if you are hurt and you struggle with the truth of God’s fatherhood, okay, but you need to pray about that, you need to tell God about that, you need to share the struggles with it. I think that is going to be a good first step for a lot of people. And then other ways for us, it’s if you will, model the Father’s love as opposed to just talking about it with some healing there, that could be helpful. But it is, I think in summary, we’re trying to help people to keep making the next best step, and it’s going to have to be probably about a particular sort of remedy for each person’s particular situation.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. Well, so you wrote the book and it’s got a pretty straightforward title like The Father, but it’s 30 meditations to draw you into the heart of God. Let’s take a minute if we can, just to talk about the book. You wanted to write a book about the Father because? And then what do I get when I read this book? What are these meditations meant to do?
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
Yeah, I think again, just for my own work as a priest and my own journey as a disciple, I do think the father question has kind of come front and center. And I do think it’s important, and I do think it is the answer to a lot of people have, but also I think it can be a bit of an abstraction. What does it mean for God to be Father? What does this actually mean and look like? And I do believe it’s part of the plan of God is that biological fathers, spiritual fathers, the intention is for them to be icons of the fatherhood of God. And so the approach is to take some of these stories of natural fathers, of spiritual fathers, which are very accessible, share these stories and then also explain how this is true of God the Father.
And the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus does… He uses this as an example or a type of… If you who are wicked will do this, how much more will your Heavenly Father do this? There is a sense in which we can reference natural fathers to learn something about the Heavenly Father. And so that’s the approach is each chapter has one of these stories which help us access the truth and access the mystery. And then the second part of each chapter is explaining how this is true of God and his fatherhood, and it has a retreat format at the service of actually retaining and receiving the graces as opposed to just moving through another book.
Cy Kellett:
I see. So that’s why you want… It’s almost like a little retreat, do these 30 meditations.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
Yeah, that’s the hope. I think there’s just such a tendency to consuming more and more and more the next thing, and sometimes it can be at the cost of really interiorizing and assimilating and receiving, if you will, the graces being offered. And so the hope, I know it’s kind of against people’s maybe tendency, is for them to just do one a day, one at a time and to make a bit of a retreat of it.
Cy Kellett:
And the meditations that you chose, how did you find these meditations? They’re stories of fatherhood basically.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
Yeah. And as a Franciscan, we don’t have a lot of material wealth, but we do have a lot of wealth of testimonies. And so just all of these stories are people who I know firsthand or was able to reach out and to do [inaudible 00:22:21] interview of. And so there are just these stories all over the place, and I just had the opportunity to bring them together for this work.
Cy Kellett:
The name of the book, just so that people will know, it’s called The Father: 30 Meditations to Draw You into the Heart of God. This might be one to think about for Father’s Day coming up to give to a father and also in appreciation of that father. Father Mark-Mary Ames has been our guest. And Father, I’m very grateful that you took the time. Fatherhood is so denigrated and this can’t but be problematic in our response to the Father. And that’s why I really, really wanted to talk with you that we need a new vision of fatherhood so that we can, or maybe not a new vision, but a renewed vision of fatherhood so that we can come to the Father and really have that abiding trust in Him.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
Yeah, absolutely. And my hope that this book is kind of a source of grace for people who desire us of that as well.
Cy Kellett:
And it’s interesting what you said about that… Mary can be a way into that if you have a problem. And the thing that you often hear people say about, what’s the first job of a father in a family? It’s to love the mother. You often hear that like in homilies or whatnot, and you think how much He loves Mary, how much He has allowed her to be exalted and loved, and has lavished His love on her. It’s wonderful to think of her as one of the keys maybe to drawing us back to Him as our Father.
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
Absolutely. And again, we’re always looking for that next best step. So if that is the next best step for folks is again, going deeper with our lady, then go there. Follow where the spirit leads.
Cy Kellett:
Father, thank you. How do people find out about the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal if they want to know more about what you do?
Fr. Mark-Mary Ames:
We’re kind of all over the internet, so you can just search Franciscan Friars of the Renewal. If you’re a video watcher, [inaudible 00:24:44] Ascension presents on YouTube. We have a podcast as well called The Poco a Poco Podcast. And then kind of our central hub for communicating information is our Instagram, CFR_Franciscans.
Cy Kellett:
The Father: 30 Meditations to Draw You into the Heart of God. Father Mark-Mary Ames is the author. You can get it from Ascension Press, just another and a long list of wonderful things Ascension Press is up to. Check out all of their stuff at ascensionpress.com. That will do it for us. If you want to communicate with us, you can always send us an email, focus@catholic.com is the place to send it. Maybe you have a question or an idea about this episode. Maybe you want to suggest a guest or a topic for a future episode, focus@catholic.com. As always, if you want to support us financially, you can do that by going to givecatholic.com. It does cost a little bit to keep these lights on and turn these knobs and do all that stuff. And your help is much appreciated. Givecatholic.com is where you can make that support financially.
And I’m also supposed to tell you wherever you listen to this podcast, if you give us the five stars and… Somebody gave a five star review to Father’s book, and that’s part of why we know about it. So if you give a five star review to this podcast, maybe write a few nice words about the podcast that will encourage other people to listen, and that’s what we’d like. We’d like to continue to share ways that people can explain and defend and share the Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. I’m very grateful that you took the time with us. We’ll see you next time. God willing, right here on Catholic Answers Focus.