Jason Evert from chastity.com joins us for a discussion of transgenderism from a Christian perspective. Most importantly, what is driving the current mania for switching genders, and how might a disciple of Christ respond?
Cy Kellett: Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers Podcast for living, understanding and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. And I’ll bet you sometime in the next few months, between now and the end of the year, you’re going to have a conversation about transgenderism. That’s going to happen at Thanksgiving, or at Christmas, or out on the street at Halloween. I don’t know where it’s going to happen, but you’re going to have that conversation. And maybe you’d like to be prepared with how to have that conversation in a fruitful and profitable way for you and for whoever you’re having that conversation with.
And so we’ve got a great guest for you to talk about that this time. That’s Jason Evert, one of the great educators on the dignity and the beauty of chaste and self-giving lives. He’s one of those undergraduate and graduate Franciscan University of Steubenville guys. And with his wife, Crystalina, he is the co-founder of the Chastity Project, the website chastity.com. And there’s a million other things I could mention. Jason Evert, thank you for being with us.
Jason Evert: It’s good to be with you, Cy.
Cy Kellett: All right, so you got a book coming out on this. And here’s, I think, the conversation that a lot of people my age dread and that is with our 20-something kids or their friends, or maybe our teen-something kids or their friends, about this topic. And you talk with young folks all the time. Give us some sense of the dos and don’ts of that conversation when it comes up.
Jason Evert: Well, I think the biggest do is to listen. I think, as Catholics, we really get locked in on transgenderism as an ideology that needs to be defeated. Like, “Okay, it’s a heresy. We’ve got to get our good arguments. And we’re going to shoot this thing down to win the culture war.” And that’s obviously, important, because this is a huge cultural issue. But this is not just an ideology. These are individuals. These are human beings, many of whom are actually in the Catholic Church, that may be in your parish sitting five seats down from you in the pew. And you have no idea that they’re wrestling with gender dysphoria, that they’ve struggled with for years. And when we’re only addressing it as an ideology, it’s almost like, you think of a husband and a wife bickering back and forth and there’s a kid sitting at their feet that feels completely ignored and invisible.
A lot of times, that’s how people feel who wrestle with gender dysphoria, when it’s just this culture war battle back and forth. And everyone’s talking about the issue, but nobody’s actually talking to the people who are experiencing it. So I’d say step number one conversation topic is to have ears. “Oh, okay. Tell me more about that. When did you start feeling that way? Where have you learned about that?” Really, a reverent curiosity to learn more about this instead of just simply learning how to debunk it.
Cy Kellett: Okay. And I imagine that you have done this, because I’m sure that people come up to you and tell you that they have these struggles in their own life. So what have you heard? What are you hearing from people who are identifying themselves as transgender or gender dysphoric, as you said?
Jason Evert: What I try to do is to help them listen to the dysphoria. And what I mean by that is not listen for the sake of just blindly obeying and following it, but typically it’s crying out for a legitimate unmet need. The perfect example, I was speaking at a high school in Dallas and a boy came up and told me he’s trans. And we had a wonderful conversation. And it came up in the conversation, that he said, “Look, I’ve got two older sisters, two younger sisters, and they can do no wrong. And my parents dote on them, and love them, and give them affection. But me, I’m on the swim team. I’m in martial arts. I’ve got straight A’s. And nothing’s ever good enough. Everything I do is a failure and a shortcoming. And my parents are so hard on me.” And I just listened for a long time and I said, “Do you think that if you were born a girl that you would’ve been loved the way your sisters are loved?” And he looked at me and he said, “I know I would have.”
And to me, it’s like, “There we go!” The solution is not to become a girl. The solution is that you ache for love, because that’s what you were created for. And he saw a transition of gender as the opportunity to find the love that he was made for. And so if we can listen to those deeper cravings going on, we can sometimes help them meet those legitimate needs. And then they won’t have to go on these puberty blockers, and cross-sex hormones, and life altering-surgeries that don’t really solve the problems to begin with. I mean, another situation, seven junior high girls came up to me, all identifying as lesbian. And obviously, sexual attractions is distinct from gender, but there’s a similar correlation here. And these are 12-year-old girls identifying as lesbian. And we started talking. It turns out they’re not sexually attracted to the eighth grade girls. They just think the eighth grade boys are disgusting, which we know that they are.
So I didn’t try to sit there and debate whether they’re lesbian. What I tried to do is just say, “You know what? I’m really glad you’re not at attracted to those guys. In fact, I’d be more worried about you if you did find what those guys are offering you to be attractive. But the answer isn’t to put an L on your forehead. The answer is realize yes, you’re right to feel repulsed by what’s repulsive.” And so if we’re not listening to their deeper aches and we’re just shaming them for the solution that they’re trying to find, we’re really talking past each other.
Cy Kellett: The thing is, you’re really good at this, Jason. And I know that the parent who will welcome the freshman home from college at Thanksgiving or whatnot and will get the question, “Well, why don’t you think that,” I don’t know, “that a boy can become a girl?” The challenge, in other words, of, “Why are you so negative about this? Why don’t you just let people be what they want to be?” That’s, I think, how we’ll hear the question.
Jason Evert: I think we’ve got to take listen to them to see, okay, what kind of information are they getting? Are they sitting in a gender studies class that’s telling them that there’s a whole spectrum not only of gender, but of biological sex? So you could dive into that. And be like, “Well, every cell of the human body is sexed. That’s why you can’t really have a sex change, because you’d have to swap out every cell of the human body.” And they might say, “Oh, well, I’m not saying I’m changing sex. What my friends want to do is change their body so it feels more alignment with their inner sense of their gender identity.” And what I could try to switch to there is like, “Okay, well, what are our bodies? Our body’s just something we have, like we can have a pair of jeans? No, I mean, your body is you.”
And if you were to hit someone and they said, “Why did you hit me?” You couldn’t say, “I didn’t hit you. I just hit your body,” because your body is you. If you say, “I’m going to the store,” well, I’m willing to bet that your body is going to be going to the store as well, because it’s not something you have, it’s who you are. And so the question is, is my body meaningless or is my body meaningful? And so when it comes to giving people permission to do this, well, I mean, you’ve got people on YouTube now having racial reassignment surgeries, where they’re identifying as Korean. They’ve had 18 surgeries to do it. Some people are identifying as trans species, identifying as a parrot. You can look this up on YouTube.
And you could say to this student, “Well, why won’t you let that person be their most authentic self? I mean, if that man thinks he’s a parrot, who are you to tell him he’s not? If that person wants to identify as Korean, I mean, you’re being transphobic and bigoted by not letting him transition to Korean. Do you hate these people?” And they’d be like, “Well, no, I don’t hate him. But it’s not about permission, it’s about possibility.” And that’s what we want to look at is. It’s like, just because I don’t think something is possible doesn’t mean that I hate the individual. Maybe I just love them enough to tell them the truth.
Cy Kellett: Yes, and indeed, that it is not, in fact, possible. Do you talk with young people? Or would you stay away from this? About the fact that very recently, maybe 15 years ago, there is virtually none of this going on, that there were very, very few clinics involved in this. There were very few people who were claiming this. And now, all of a sudden, it seems to have absolutely flowered so that you have thousands of people making this claim and hundreds of clinics have popped up. Is it worth talking about the fact that this does have some of the earmarks of a fad? Or maybe fad is too dismissive a word. I don’t want to use a dismissive word, but you understand the question, so I’ll let you take it.
Jason Evert: I mean, you don’t want to be careful. There’s a term out there called trans trender, which is the idea of certain people identifying as trans, because it’s trendy. Now, some people legitimately have gender dysphoria. And if they hear us dismissing it, as if it’s just, “Oh, it’s some phase they’ll get out of, just get over it, it’s just some fad fit in,” they’re going to shut us down immediately. A better way to look at it is there’s a woman named Dr. Lisa Littman, not a conservative, worked for Planned Parenthood. And she noticed that there’s a trend right now predominantly amongst adolescent females between the ages of 12 to 17, who typically come from middle to upper class, white progressive families. These are young girls who don’t typically have much or any dating experience. They often have high-functioning autism. And they’re a little bit socially awkward, often going to a public school.
And then they’re in a group of friends or one comes out, “I’m trans.” And before you know it, “I’m trans,” “I’m trans,” “I’m trans.” And you’ve got seven girls in the same clique all identifying as trans or non-binary. And the title she’s giving to this is rapid-onset gender dysphoria. These are adolescents without a preexisting history of childhood gender dysphoria, all of the sudden declaring themselves trans, wanting their parents to buy them a binder or get top surgery and cross-sex hormones. And it’s really coming out of the blue. And so it is a social contagion of sorts, because if you look at this spike we’re seeing in people identifying as trans, it’s not so much happening with the guys or with middle-aged women coming out as trans. It’s predominantly adolescent females.
And you could say, “Well, where’s the fuel behind this?” Well, I mean, there’s a lot of sources of supply, so to speak. But I think one of them does have to do with pornography, because you’ve got a lot of girls seeing that stuff. Not only feeling like they couldn’t live up to it, but feeling like, “Ugh, I don’t even want to be a part of that. And if that’s what’s required of femininity, it’s not necessarily that I want to be a guy,” because most girls who transition, whether it’s to non-binary or trans woman, man, this, most of them do not get bottom surgery. Most of them are not trying to look like a guy. They just want to opt out of womanhood. It was Abigail Shrier said, “They’re fleeing womanhood like a house on fire without any particular destination in mind.”
And so we’ve got to realize there is a social contagion element going on. This is global. I mean, over in England, the UK, Amsterdam, I mean, rates skyrocketing 4,000, 5,000% in a span of 10 years. And so sociologists are clear, there is an element of social contagion going on. If you want to read a book on it, I really recommend Abigail Shrier’s book, Irreversible Damage.
Cy Kellett: Okay. So what about the situation then, and I imagine you’ve probably dealt with all these situations, of the child who is in the midst of that contagion, or the parent, and the teenager is convinced that the parents simply cannot understand them? The parent is convinced, “Well, I’ve been around this block a few times. I’ve known you since you were…” And this looks like, I don’t know why, but it doesn’t look like genuine dysphoria that’s neurological or conditioned from the time of birth. But it looks like a bit of contagion. But how does the parent deal with that? Because I would think there’s a danger of pushing the child further and further into that if it’s just a power struggle.
Jason Evert: I mean, 20, 30, 40 years ago, if a girl was typically gender nonconforming, maybe a little bit more fit in with the guys, you just called her a tomboy. And she knew I’m a woman, but I’m just a little bit more like the guys when it comes to interests or activities. Nowadays, there’s no category for tomboy anymore. It’s just trans. It’s almost like goth. I mean, where are the goths now? They’re gone. They don’t even exist. Now, the new clique that’s replaced that is those identifying as non-binary or this or that. What they’re looking for ultimately, is a sense of identity, and community, and mission. And if they’re not finding that in the church, but then, they feel a bit of an outsider, an outlier, and then they find that community on an online trans group or at an LGBT group on campus. All of a sudden, not only do they have community, but they have a sense of identity.
“Man, I’ve been really wrestling with not feeling at home in my own body, but now I’ve got a word for it. The word is trans. I am trans. And then I’ve got a sense of mission, because now I’m a victimized minority in culture.” And so these deep human needs of identity, community and mission are all being falsely met. And that’s why when you try to pull any of that away, it feels like you’re ripping a bandage off of a fresh scab. It’s like, “Whoa! You’re not just trying to debunk my ideology. You’re trying to take away my identity, my sense of community and mission. You’re going to take it all away from me. Heck, no!” And then they really double down. And so we’ve got to have, like I said, those compassionate listening ears.
I think you’ve got to listen, “Okay, where is this all this coming from?” You listen to it. You want to make her know that you understand, “This matters to you and so that matters to me. But let’s do a compromise. I’m going to learn about this, but we need to take some screen breaks, okay? No more Tumblr. No more Reddit. No more Instagram. No more YouTube. We’re going to go camping. We’re going to start having family dinners. We’re going to get out and about more, Instead of you locked in your room on some social media platform watching trans influencers for eight hours at a time.” That is just going to be lighter fluid on the fire. So make sure you’re unplugging the kids and spending more time in three dimensional space with family and friends.
Cy Kellett: But, and I’m sure you’ve seen this phenomenon, you as the parent who then denies the child’s transgender state is very likely the enemy of some school officials, some psychologists, some medical professionals. So now, you’re the problem, actually. You’re the diagnosed problem. The child is not. So you’re not just interacting with your own child, you’re interacting with a whole kind of, and quite suddenly, a whole world of professionals who’ve decided this is the truth.
Jason Evert: And that’s why parents need to do their homework of what type of school their kids are in. Because a lot of these schools will actually let the kid come to school, change their clothes in the nurse’s office to the other gender. And they have in the school files that, “During school, you refer to this person as this gender with these pronouns. But if the parent calls in, you can refer to the child by their parent’s name that they call them, because we don’t want to tip off the parents that the kids are living this transgender ideology during school hours and then shifting back to the other when they get home.” I mean, some schools are literally going along with all of this stuff, ushering these kids through the full transition, while the parents don’t have a clue. You got to get your head out of the sand.
Pull your kid out of that school, if you need to. If they’re getting coached in that direction, sometimes you need to change schools. I know some families that have moved to different states to reset and detox out of this thing, because it’s a very cult-like mentality, that dissension is not permitted. And if anyone does not go along with you full feathered whatever you want to be and do, then that person hates you. And so if they don’t affirm you, we will. And this can get really dangerous, where parents can lose custody of their children in certain states if they don’t affirm them and go along with this stuff. And if you live in a place like Oregon, I mean, good luck, because up there, a 20-year-old girl is not allowed to get a tattoo of a flower on her ankle if she’s 20 years old. If she’s 17 and she wants to get a tanning salon before going to Homecoming, you can’t do that without a letter from a doctor.
But if you’re 15 years old and you think you’re non-binary, you can get a radical double mastectomy at the age of 15 without parental consent in the whole state of Oregon. But in Portland, you can’t get a tattoo if you’re 20 years old. I mean, we’ve got to be, as parents, alert, on top of this stuff, and getting our kids out of these school systems if that’s the kind of ideology they’re getting pumped with sometimes as early as pre-kindergarten, reading these kids transgender books, like they are up in Massachusetts.
Cy Kellett: I don’t know how parents, I don’t know how they remain non-violent frankly, after something like that done to their 15-year-old child. The adults who are doing this are mad. This is madness. An adult does not treat a girl that way. I mean, at 15, you are a girl. But our society has somehow turned these doctors and these professionals into heroes.
Jason Evert: Oh, yeah. I mean, we got to understand too, we’re talking about a multi hundreds of million dollar industry right now when it comes to these surgeries. I mean, some of these clinics are bringing in up to a hundred thousand dollars per surgery. And when those things are covered by insurance, the patient doesn’t have to cover that. And then it’s not just the day of the surgery, “Okay, we’re done.” We’re talking about a lifetime of medicalization. In order to retain this feminized or masculinized appearance, you need to be on cross-sex hormones for the rest of your life. I mean, even if the person were to have certain surgeries where the male’s genitals are removed and then he decides it was a mistake, he still has to go on now, testosterone supplements for life to make up for the fact he can’t produce that natural hormone anymore. And so either way, there is some bankroll to be made in this industry and people know it.
And so we’ve got to realize these aren’t just a lot of altruistic people who want to help kids be their authentic self. I mean, there are some serious dollar bills going on, where some of these companies that make puberty blockers, one of them called Lupron is the drug, they’re giving physicians up to a hundred thousand dollars bonuses just to make it available to their patients. But this is the drug they’re giving to chemically castrate male sex offenders and they’re injecting it into 9-year-old kids to block puberty. But if you’re not having puberty, that’s actually a disease, Kallmann Syndrome. It’s an actual disease not to have a natural puberty. There’s medication to help fix that. But we’re actually inducing a disease state into our children, because we think that this is going to help them be their authentic self. I mean, this is not medicine. This is collaborating with mental illness instead of treating it.
Cy Kellett: It is, indeed. And when you hear it is infuriating. But I’ve asked you about how to talk to the kids at home or the student who comes back from college and all of that. But some of these conversations will be between spouses. They’ll be between peers at work and that kind of thing. What are the things that… And again, I’m sure that there are strategies that will work and strategies that won’t, but I mean, we don’t have to be quite as protective of the other person, I suppose, as we do when we’re speaking to our child and we want to be helpful to our child. What are the things you might say to other adults to wake them up to the reality that castrating drugs or being injected in 9-year-old boys and that’s not acceptable? That has to stop. Someone has to stop that.
Jason Evert: Well, what I find is the vast majority of people are not on board with this whole transgender ideology thing. They just go along with it, because it’s socially and economically expedient to do so. In other words, like, “Okay, you either accept these people as trans or you abandon them, and you reject them, and you’re a transphobic bigot. So what do you want to be the bigot or the understanding, accepting, compassionate person who’s helping people to be their authentic self?” “Well, I’ll go with that one.” It’s not that they deeply are convicted of the truths of transgender ideology. They just think there’s no other option but to just affirm them or just be a jerk. This idea that Pope Francis lays out of accompaniment, of walking with people in truth and in love is never even offered as an option. And so we’ve got to realize it’s not just about acceptance or abandonment.
We have to love people enough to realize that if you love somebody, you don’t lie to them. You don’t perpetuate and immerse yourself into a delusion, because you’re afraid to have guts. Because I don’t know about you. I would much rather be surrounded by people who tell me the truth, even if it’s inconvenient and I don’t want to hear it, than to be surrounded by people who are too selfish to face rejection by telling me what I might not want to hear. Give me a small number of people who are going to tell me the truth instead of a hundred friends who are never just going to shoot straight with me.
And so we’ve got to be those few voices crying out in the wilderness, like, no, because if we tell them the truth, even in love and gentleness, you might get rejected and resentful attitude towards you. But I promise you, if you don’t speak the truth, 10 years from now, they’re going to feel way more resentful to you, because you never had the guts to tell them the truth.
Cy Kellett: Wow. But you know what? I just can’t take any people rejecting me on social media. It does feel like that’s the stakes for many of us is Twitter might not like me. And I don’t want to be unliked on Twitter. But the stakes for children is, “I may never have children. Or I may never nurse the children that I do have, because my breasts were removed when I was 15 years old.” The stakes don’t seem proportionate, but still it’s very hard to let go of that, “I just don’t want to be unpopular on Twitter.”
Jason Evert: I remember when Bruce Caitlin Jenner won, I think, it was the Arthur Ash Awards at one of the SB ceremonies half decade ago. He wins this award, standing on stage, a biological male in a dress winning a prize for courage. And then they announce it, and all the athletes stand up. It’s a standing ovation. But then a camera just panoramically zoomed over all the faces of the athletes, and everyone’s like, [inaudible 00:22:32]. I mean, you could see, they’re like, “I’m standing up and I’m clapping, because if I don’t, I am crucified.” And so these are typically, I mean, alpha male athletes that were probably raised by evangelical moms and single parent homes, hardworking individuals with Christian values, the vast majority of these guys. But they know, “If I don’t stand up and clap for this, I’m going to be crucified. And so I’m just towing the party line and keeping my head low. And you do you.” It is not a deep conviction that believes this is true, though.
Cy Kellett: No, that’s right. But it does seem to me that even if we’ve accommodated ourselves along the way, and many of us have again and again, and I know that I have again and again, failed to stand up for chastity, or stand up for the permanence of marriage, or we failed to stand up again and again as the sexual revolution proposed new things, if there’s a hill to die on, it’s this one. I mean, even if you’ve come very late to the game, as I will confess that I have on many, many of the sexual revolution issues, die on this hill, because this is the one where it becomes madness for children. You just can’t have a world where children are being castrated.
Jason Evert: No, I mean, and they say, “Well, we’re going to just put the pause button on puberty, give you some puberty blockers, give you time to decide if this is the right thing for you. Oh, hey, and then when you’re done, you can just go back on with puberty if you don’t decide it’s right for you.” That’s the party line. But it’s not a pause button. It’s a fast forward button, because literally a hundred percent of the kids, studies show, that go on puberty blockers will go on to cross-sex hormones. But if you go from the first to the second, you’re sterilized for the rest of your life. And it’s not just that you can’t have kids, but think about it. I mean, the average man has two kids in his life. If a thousand kid, males go on puberty blockers and then to cross-sex hormones, that’s a thousand sterilizations, let’s just say, a year.
Now, do a generation of that. You’re looking at 30,000, who then don’t have 60,000 kids, who then in a generation don’t have 120,000 kids. You do this within five generations, that’s a million people missing from the planet Earth from simply 1,000 people on earth going through this transition in a single year. Numbers are by far higher than this and exponentially over a few generations. It’s staggering how many human beings will not exist if they go through this process. And so we’ve got to really speak up, because these kids can’t see into the future at 15 years of age, 16 years of age. And then the frontal lobe of the brain develops when they’re 25 and they look down and they think, “What did I do to myself? What did you adults let me do to myself?” Because, I mean, Cy, if the decisions that you made at 13 years of age were irreversible, I mean, it’d be tragic.
I’ve seen the yearbook photos. What were you thinking with that hairdo? But imagine if that could never be changed. This is much more grave. And the fact that this stuff is unchangeable and we’re just going along with it to help them be their authentic selves, shame on us if we don’t speak up in love.
Cy Kellett: I hate to say this, Jason, it’s slightly off topic, but I do want to say it. There’s many people who will hear you say, today in this world, a million less human beings. And they’ll say, “Good. We’re no good for this planet. I mean, we’re ruining everything. That’s good. We’ll have fewer human beings.”
Jason Evert: I got to throw out there, Vladimir Putin, I mean, for Vladimir Putin, for who he is, sometimes it’s really interesting what he comes up with. About 10 years ago, he realized the population of Russia is plummeting, because they’re contracepting in aborting themselves into oblivion. And so he realized, “We’re not going to have an economy, we’re not going to have a military if we don’t have Russians.” So he announced, nine months before they’re national holiday that, “You can have the day off work if you just go home and try to make a baby. And if you have a baby, nine months later, then we’re going to give you cash prizes, a free refrigerator. You could win a car. And to get you in the mood on that day that you take off, we’re going to fly Boyz II Men to Russia for a concert.”
Cy Kellett: Did he really do that?
Jason Evert: He actually did this to get them in the mood. And then now, he just reintroduced an honorary title that if a woman has had 10 or more kids, she’s called this matroness of honor. I forget what the title is. And she gets a million rubles. There’s a $16,000 prize if you’ve had 10 kids. And he’s actually trying to do this stuff, because he realizes, “Oh, my goodness, if we don’t have people, we don’t have a country. We’re about to face not a problem of overpopulation that was predicted in the ’70s. It’s a demographic winter that we’re upon. I mean, we are not replacing ourselves at all. And who’s going to pay the social security? Who’s going to sustain the economy fee if there aren’t human beings?”
And so overpopulation is not the result of too many people. It’s ethnic cleansing and an unjust distribution of resources. So the solution to poverty is not to reduce the number of poor children, but to reduce the number of corrupt, rich politicians. That’s how you solve the problem.
Cy Kellett: I like it. And I wouldn’t do Boyz II Men. That needed to be Barry White. I mean, if you really want babies, it needs to be Barry White. Jason, I just appreciate that you have thought these things through. I always can count on you that you’ve thought them through and you can articulate it. Because it’s very hard to articulate. I mean, many of us, I think, turn to people like you, because we’re like, “Ah, I don’t know what to say, but this is not right!” You got a book coming out. You and your wife, Crystalina, wrote the book. Is that right? Or is it-
Jason Evert: No. This one’s just me. I’ve been working on it for years now. And it’s actually, going off today to the editors. I’m sending it off to a team of endocrinologists, of pediatric medicine specialists, off to philosophers, theologians, experts in public policy, even people who experience transgender inclinations and don’t agree with the church. I’m sending it off to about 15 different editors that are going to really take a red pen to this thing. And when they send it back to me in about three weeks, it’s off to the type setter, off to the printer and should be out, I’m hoping, in December. So it’s called, Male, Female, Other?: A Catholic Guide to Understanding Gender Male. And so we’ll have that at Chastity.com.
But right now, we’ve got a page at Chastity.com/gender that has all kinds of resources for parents, for educators, for schools, for youth ministers of our policy on this. We’ve got all types of content that’ll help them there at Chastity.com/gender.
Cy Kellett: I’m so glad you do. I’m so glad the book is coming out. This is an all-hands-on-deck situation. And there are not enough of us on the deck. We need more. I’m very grateful to you, Jason, for taking the time. Thank you very much for doing this with us. Maybe you’ll come on when the book comes out on the live show or something and then we’ll-
Jason Evert: I’d be happy to.
Cy Kellett: Very good. And thank you for listening. We’re always happy that you spend the time with us. If you’d like to send us an email, you can always send it to Focus@catholic.com. That’s our email address, Focus@catholic.com. You want to correct something, you want to argue about something, you want to suggest a topic for the future? Whatever it is, we love to get those emails. And wherever you’re watching us or listening to us, if you’d give us that five-star review, maybe a few nice words, maybe suggest it to some friends, you’ll help us grow Catholic Answers Focus. And we’d like that. We’d appreciate it if you do that. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. Thanks again to our guest, Jason Evert. We’ll see you next time, God willing, right here on Catholic Answers Focus.